Class Balancing Thread

[DW_WailofSuicide]

Responding from the other thread ...

There's only one problem Desko you are able to go out becasue of your advanced damage reduction and then of you find a glob you are the one that is now in god mode becasuenot only can you survive when your adren runs out but you can make it back to a safe area to heal. Plus you get regen on top of it.

Each class has its abilities and just becasue a few people think its unblanced becasue of the MAPS stop messing with my character class abilities fix the REAL problem.

Although Rob is right that the maps with excessive adrenaline are exacerbating the problem, I think an item that grants complete invulnerability is flawed by design.

Last night Wraith and I were testing summonable WailLords. In order to do this he added about 100 levels to our characters so we could max out the monster line. I had some left over so I also maxed DR. Rob is correct that when low-level players are alive, a Medic is essentially invulnerable (taking 1-2 damage per hit from Nali and other low level monsters), but it's also true that when those low level players end up dying (which they will on a challenging map), that DR becomes easily overcome. Wraith and I played several maps and, though surviving wasn't our primary goal, we were still getting beaten down, even with Deadoon (lvl 46) and Desko (lvl ??) and some other guy, Mr. Bones, (lvl 25?) on the test server.

Anyway, the point of that little anecdote is to say that while DR can be very powerful, when maxed as a Medic, it isn't anywhere near complete invulnerability. If you are getting hit constantly, chances are monsters will out DPS you. If the low level characters die on a wave, it isn't going to do nearly as much. Globe, on the other hand, is not affected by these sorts of considerations. It's 100% effective regardless of if the monsters are doing 25 damage or 25 million damage, monster level 1 or monster level 500. The only ways to even make a monster threatening to someone with the Globe and a lot of Adrenaline is to make that monster drain Adrenaline with its attacks.

I would much rather the Globe give something like 90+% damage reduction than just setting a cheat on your character to make them unkillable. The first is something that can be dealt with appropriately with mechanisms the game already has for making the game difficult for high DR players. The second can't be.

[d2frob]

I agree with your points wail, however i think you miss connecting them. Add together medics being near invulnerable (when low levels are alive) and excessive adren with saferoom maps...and what do you get! Living low levels regardless of the wave!

I believe if class balancing is to occur, it should be based on either spacejunk or arid.

Suggestion for medics, the monsters they can spawn i believe should be significantly cheaper, however level restricted. Therefore it gives the flexability to make them cheaper (realistically it's a crazy amount of points to get the monsters that even make a difference) but without having the server full of them!

[DW_WailofSuicide]

I agree with your points wail, however i think you miss connecting them. Add together medics being near invulnerable (when low levels are alive) and excessive adren with saferoom maps...and what do you get! Living low levels regardless of the wave!

Spacejunk, possibly, though I think Arid is a crummy map to think about, as it's just too damn small for 20p (much less 20p + monsters).

Suggestion for medics, the monsters they can spawn i believe should be significantly cheaper, however level restricted. Therefore it gives the flexability to make them cheaper (realistically it's a crazy amount of points to get the monsters that even make a difference) but without having the server full of them!

IF I can get some of my ideas for monsters working properly, we may see them being more useful without needing to adjust costing. Hopefully by sizing down pets will reduce the annoyance factor in having them bodyblock/confuse you, as well.

[d2frob]

mmm i would still do away with intelligence though because generally that's why people are getting annoyed! (eg pets just sitting in safe spots getting in the way)

Sounds good though wail :)

Ps. Regarding size..when i had all the pets (except titan) i found them most useful as defensive objects that block the monster shots so downsizing is a bit of a double edged sword

[DW_ACY]

Wail, sorry about being on the wrong thread. I for one don't agree with the complete invurnreabiulity statment. No matter how many monsters are alivie if the low levels are dead an adren master with a globe is still going to die, believe me, I know, and I have 300+ adren. I still run out when the server does not have low levels alive which is not very often therefore easy killing and able to maintain my globe.
Once again connecting to the full logic if the maps are easy killing is easy. Maps harder more chances to die, without messing with my character class. Sorry but I just hit the wall on this one guys and I'm not one to complain about too much but if you notice now the server is populated with more medics of late....hum wonder why!

[Desko]

There's only one problem Desko you are able to go out becasue of your advanced damage reduction and then of you find a glob you are the one that is now in god mode becasuenot only can you survive when your adren runs out but you can make it back to a safe area to heal. Plus you get regen on top of it.

Each class has its abilities and just becasue a few people think its unblanced becasue of the MAPS stop messing with my character class abilities fix the REAL problem.

I just thought I'd give a well thought out reply to this.
I am level 96 and have 250 DR and maxed Advanced DR, and I still get pwned on the later waves. Obviously, Medics have their own brand of invulnerability. All classes do, but now I believe that the classes have a more balanced amount of personal defenses. All invulnerability is conditional upon a low level being alive (not likely to happen unless there are safe rooms.) It's now down to the issue of the efficacy of the invulnerability.
Medics have the dual abilities to take less damage and heal themselves.
WMs have their extra damage to repel monsters, and Vampirism to keep up their health.
AMs have the Globe, all of their adren abilities, and any weapon of their choosing in their arsenal.

Thus far, AMs have been the most powerful class due to their ability to run the Globe indefinitely; it was Rob who pointed out that Adrenaline Masters are the only class capable of soloing an entire wave. Does one class really NEED that sort of capability? Why should one class have the ability to simultaneously be invulnerable AND triple their damage output? The point of Invasion isn't to be the best man and slaughter everything. It's a team game, where each class has to cover the other's weaknesses. Up until the recent changes Adrenaline Masters, I am sorry to say, have had no weaknesses. Sure you can't survive if your the last one alive, duh, that's the point. Monsters are invading you and the monsters won. Neither Medics nor WMs can stay alive if there are no low levels alive either.

You (not one person in particular) also bring up the fact that Medics "take almost no damage." Adv Damage reduction is what does that, and it is equivalent to holding a Protection +4 weapon, which Adrenaline Masters happen to have the ability to roll. I've been told that Adrenaline Masters don't want to roll those, well that's not my problem. If you want Medic-brand invulnerability then roll a Protection Weapon. You can even +1 them and outstrip our damage resisting capabilities. Adrenaline Masters are versatile to the point of unstopability. It's time that you guys started rolling something besides energy for a change, and realized your full capabilities.


P.S. Wail, for the record, I was level 95 and Mr. Bones was level 41.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

In any case, no one's class has been changed whatsoever, and if there are any changes to RPG, it'll probably be (90% chance) in the form of additional stuff.

Assuming the server is like it was last night, Wraith has drastically reduced the quantity of Sliths on the server (I didn't see any at all). "Problem" solved.

[Zax_Gentoo_Box]

I like the sliths. I don't see what the big deal is, it's pretty easy for me, a lvl 100 (yay!) WM to take down several of them without breaking a sweat. I don't rely on energy/freezing guns, the two that they are invulnerable to. All you have to do is change your approach and you can overcome almost anything.