True weapons masters

[Inspector]

I have no problem spending 10 adren to change my medic weapon. It usually works out better, as I like different weapons for different waves. The only draw back is loosing an mp5, or mine layer if you happen to come across one and there is none on the map.

[Jade]

weapon and adrem masters have the upper hand on meddics in the higher levels,since they usaly have all weap/atributes,so i was thinking that it may be an idea to isue 1 special weapon to each class.there are 3 basic weapons that i think of,ripper/mine layer,and avril.currently all only avail to weaponmasters,i think.
i am thinking to give the ripper to meddics,couse they got no globe,and can not create the most powerfull magic weapons,so they need to hide more often.(ripper shoots around corners,a cowards best freind :) )
adren masters have diff in the beginning,so they should have the mine layer,i think.same reason,if you dont heve the adren neededmyou need to hide.
weapon masters will get the amrill,since they got the most powerfull weapons already,and can get vorpal weapons.
this is yust an idea,there is always room to debate.ne ways,love to hear some opinions,and if it is even possible to create is technicaly....
thanks :wav:

[DW_WailofSuicide]

As for medics, would be good to let them get maybe one level of resupply, they have to get bored using the same weapon.

Nah, that would defeat the purpose of being a Medic. They make the Medic Weapon have infinity ammo because it was their intention to make the Medics only use their Medic Weapon. If you are getting bored using just one weapon, then Medic probably isn't the class for you. Believe me, I have wished for resupply as a Medic, but I know that it would defeat the purpose.

Well, I disagree on that point. I have had this discussion with Szlat on DisastrousConsequences, and last I heard, was planning on going a different route with Medics for UT3. Giving Medics resupply and simply making any hit they make against teammates do healing seems like a smarter way to do things (IMO).

Of course, it's all irrelevant because things are the way they are, and I doubt they're going to change much. The only sorts of changes I would expect would be additions to the way things currently work, and even then only if approved by Wraith.

[Desko]

Well, I disagree on that point. I have had this discussion with Szlat on DisastrousConsequences, and last I heard, was planning on going a different route with Medics for UT3. Giving Medics resupply and simply making any hit they make against teammates do healing seems like a smarter way to do things (IMO).

However, I can keep up a Triple on my Medic with just my Medic Weapon. If I was allowed to use Energy Weapons in addition to this, then keeping up a Globe would be no problem. Couple this with the fact that Medics already take criminally low damage, and you completely undermine the class system.



@Jade: High level Medics rarely need to hide. They are far from the weakest class.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

Well, I disagree on that point. I have had this discussion with Szlat on DisastrousConsequences, and last I heard, was planning on going a different route with Medics for UT3. Giving Medics resupply and simply making any hit they make against teammates do healing seems like a smarter way to do things (IMO).

However, I can keep up a Triple on my Medic with just my Medic Weapon. If I was allowed to use Energy Weapons in addition to this, then keeping up a Globe would be no problem. Couple this with the fact that Medics already take criminally low damage, and you completely undermine the class system.

@Jade: High level Medics rarely need to hide. They are far from the weakest class.

I'm not sure how this supposedly undermines the class system. Apparently running Triple Damage is okay (assuming you can find one), and sustaining Triple Damage is okay, but sustaining Triple Damage with an Energy weapon is not okay? You'd still run out of ammo, as WMs and AMs do.

Either way, being able to use any of the ~20 magic weapon types that exist as part of the core of UT2004RPG/DruidsRPG strikes me as basic functionality. Effectively being unable to use these weapons is not an intended part of RPG, it's a side-effect.

[Desko]

I'm not saying that you can't use Energy Weapons to use your artifacts. I'm just saying that opening up the possibility of Medics using the Globe and Triple effectively, in addition to their near invincibility, would tip the balance in their favor. As they are, they are as effective as any other class. Expanding their arsenal to everything the other classes have would overpower them.

If you give Medics Resupply, why not give Weapon Masters Loaded Artifacts or Energy Leech? Or give Adrenaline Masters Loaded Medic? It's just not the way they were meant to be played.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Wanting one of the three classes to be able to utilize basic functionality built into RPG is not a slippery slope of MOAR POWER as you want to portray it. The fact that playing without resupply is as large of a hindrance as it is, is purely a result of the levels we're playing at, with weapon speeds that are too high for ammo pickups to support, maps that are too small for the number of players we're playing with, or maps that poorly designed with lots of 100+ adrenaline pills everywhere, but no ammo pickups at all.

You also realize that the adrenaline boost you get for Multi kill and Spree awards is not part of RPG, and yet is a huge bonus when it comes to running adrenaline based abilities right? It's these bonuses that allow people to run Globe and Triple for entire waves, but it's not part of RPG. Somehow, something like this slips by, an ability that has a huge impact of the effectiveness of characters, yet being able to use basic crap like more than one weapon is beyond the pale. Whatever.

I'm also unsure what these major benefits that the Medic/Monster Master class is supposed to be getting are: Medic weapon and advanced damage reduction? Basically everything else the class gets everyone else gets.

Anyway, what you don't seem to be getting is that I'm not particularly concerned with how things "are" I'm concerned with how things should be. You realize that right? This is all purely hypothetical, and it won't happen, but when I talk about giving Resupply to Medics/Monster Masters, I'm also talking about eliminating the infinite Medic weapon. This is big pluses all around where I'm concerned: Less reliance on the MP5, the ability to utilize all weapons, no more single-weapon reliance for an entire map, reduced early-game effectiveness spike, more build choices.

Astonishing facts:

UT2004RPG in its original form had no classes, and classes were only introduced into DruidsRPG when people began abusing the adrenaline gaining abilities and Triple Damage.

Adrenaline Masters were originally intended to be a sort of "Mage" class. I don't know of any game where Mages have the same range of weapons choice as Fighters (or Clerics, for that matter).

Medic/Monster Masters were originally intended to focus mainly on monster abilities, with a few medic abilities.

[Desko]

I understand that you disagree with me. I accept that. However, I believe that there are a few things that you are not taking into account.

Medics do not have denial; they would be left with the weapons that they pick up. They don't have the ability to roll weapons, and they don't start with all the shiny weapons. That's why they rely on their Medic Weapon.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Basic ideas of philosophy render the idea inconceivable. Medics function as well as any other class. Why change a system that works?

You also realize that the adrenaline boost you get for Multi kill and Spree awards is not part of RPG, and yet is a huge bonus when it comes to running adrenaline based abilities right? ...... Whatever.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that they should have removed the bonuses for Multi Kills? They are making a mod, not a whole new game.

Also, astonishing fact:
Druids wasn't tailor made for Invasion. They didn't have Invasion alone in mind when they made this mod. In any other gametype, Medics can use every weapon. It just so happens that the Invasion gametype changes the Medic class into something different and unintended. However, different and unintended or not, the class still works. If you disagree, then I can show you in game.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

I understand that you disagree with me. I accept that. However, I believe that there are a few things that you are not taking into account.

Medics do not have denial; they would be left with the weapons that they pick up. They don't have the ability to roll weapons, and they don't start with all the shiny weapons. That's why they rely on their Medic Weapon.

I'm not seeing how this is relevant except to support my point. Yes, Medics don't get all the weapons when they spawn, and yes, they don't get all positive magic weapons, and yes they don't get denial, or any number of abilities that are useful but not integral to a character being able to use the different magic weapons. I guess having all these advantages isn't enough for other classes?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Pretty much agreed there. That's why I'm not seriously proposing any such changes. I'd disagree with you that the Medic class "functions as well as any other class" though. It just isn't dysfunctional enough to warrant the work that would be needed to change it.

You also realize that the adrenaline boost you get for Multi kill and Spree awards is not part of RPG, and yet is a huge bonus when it comes to running adrenaline based abilities right? ...... Whatever.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that they should have removed the bonuses for Multi Kills? They are making a mod, not a whole new game.

Multi kill and spree bonuses don't exist in Invasion. They are added via mutator.

Druids wasn't tailor made for Invasion. They didn't have Invasion alone in mind when they made this mod. In any other gametype, Medics can use every weapon. It just so happens that the Invasion gametype changes the Medic class into something different and unintended. However, different and unintended or not, the class still works. If you disagree, then I can show you in game.

Yes, but 100% of good people agree that using RPG with non-equally levelled characters in competitive gametypes is crap. I remember when I was playing on Disastrous Consequences, I had a low level character when they voted on a vCTF map. Level 25 vs. level 200 character, hmm. Probably one of the least enjoyable UT2004 experiences I've had.

And, as I said above, I don't disagree that it "works." But it's not a particularly good state of affairs. I don't think being closed-minded to exploring potential future development is altogether that helpful, but I guess it's better than having to listen to constant bitching about favoritism.

[Celtic]

you guys are forgetting about the most beneficial thing about being a medic.... the monster, your monster can get you almost 5 times as much xp killing something compared to if you were to kill it by yourself..

the medic class is taken lightly because of the score it displays when you press f2 but what everyone fails to consider is how much xp you and can get from your monster and healing other people (eventhough healing other people isnt really that big of a factor)
i sat and watched killas titan get him 200 plus xp everytime the titan hit luci with a rock


but oh well whatever