Flak_Monkey, you are correct, if you read my second post, you will see why it was. I have had many posts from some people seem rude to me only to have them tell me it wasn't rude at all, and I need to calm down. I was making a point.
Damnit, I did it again, This is Redeemer, Not SupernovA.
Reality Check
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DW_SupernovA
- DW Clan Member
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:00 am
- Xfire: supernova0531
- Location: Tyler, TX
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DW_ToxicWaste
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:00 am
Well this is an age old issue, not a new one. Do you find fun in a challenge? Or do you find fun in racking up XP and maxing your abilities? At the end of the day, that's what it is all about. Anyone who thinks one is right and the other is wrong, is well, wrong.
The server cannot be both at the same time. It's map specific, and it's up to those who do the voting. If you have all maps with no hiding places, you piss off half the population. If you have all hiding places, you piss off the other half. And what do you do when one night you're in the mood for one, and the next you're in the mood for another? Not everyone likes the same thing all the time.
Me personally, I generally appreciate a challenge more than racking up the XP. I find grinding it out to be boring. I'd rather face overwhelming odds, and prevail against them, then basically stepping on an ant which poses no threat. But that's me....
But let's be honest here. Those of you asking for no hiding places, what level are you? How long have you been playing here? Did you ever use hiding places on your way to level 300? Why should you have the benefit of having used hiding places, while a new person has to face the challenge of level 300 monsters without the same benefit?
In other words, I think there's a dump truck full of hypocricy here. Those of you asking for no hiding places: volunteer to reset yourselves back to level 25 and I'll be more impressed with your desire for a challenge.
In the mean time, let's follow Wail's lead in trying to find a real solution to the problem.
Rich (TW)
The server cannot be both at the same time. It's map specific, and it's up to those who do the voting. If you have all maps with no hiding places, you piss off half the population. If you have all hiding places, you piss off the other half. And what do you do when one night you're in the mood for one, and the next you're in the mood for another? Not everyone likes the same thing all the time.
Me personally, I generally appreciate a challenge more than racking up the XP. I find grinding it out to be boring. I'd rather face overwhelming odds, and prevail against them, then basically stepping on an ant which poses no threat. But that's me....
But let's be honest here. Those of you asking for no hiding places, what level are you? How long have you been playing here? Did you ever use hiding places on your way to level 300? Why should you have the benefit of having used hiding places, while a new person has to face the challenge of level 300 monsters without the same benefit?
In other words, I think there's a dump truck full of hypocricy here. Those of you asking for no hiding places: volunteer to reset yourselves back to level 25 and I'll be more impressed with your desire for a challenge.
In the mean time, let's follow Wail's lead in trying to find a real solution to the problem.
Rich (TW)
* > Tommo
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Tazcrosblade_
- 1337 Haxor
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:00 pm
well acy makes a good point its a public server and you have to accomadate everyone.
now to the disagreeing part. while yes the difficulty is by a map by map basis, but really what map other than kotam is really hard? and when do we get that map up? once every like two days, even then the only way to get it voted is to have all the people in vent vote for it. im just saying mabey some more mega difficulty maps are in order. like for example a big empty square map with anti adrenalin pills and super death lasers..... just saying
now to the disagreeing part. while yes the difficulty is by a map by map basis, but really what map other than kotam is really hard? and when do we get that map up? once every like two days, even then the only way to get it voted is to have all the people in vent vote for it. im just saying mabey some more mega difficulty maps are in order. like for example a big empty square map with anti adrenalin pills and super death lasers..... just saying
Its Pronounced Taz-Cross-Blade, not Tazer-Blade, not Taz-Crows-Blade, not Taco-Blade, Taz-Cross-Blade
Known difficult maps or maps that have been failed in recent weeks:
DM - Arid
DM - Arlon
DM - Ashlar-beta1
DM - BloodGulch-2-fix2
DM - Head2HeadPinBallWarz-PBG-D
DM - Kotam
DM - Osiris2
DM - Pathogen-1
DM - Ravine_V3-INV-PD2
DM - XibalbaE
DM - Old_Brewhouse-v1-HB
Plus a few more that I can't remember the names too.
Wail - Could you maybe give us an explanation on how exactly anything over 200 DR works? you would think that at 200, you couldn't take any more damage, seeing as that is equal to 100% Damage Reduction. DR suddenly became effective for all of my characters at around 315. Anyone else remember when it was for them?
I don't think that the maps need to be too much harder than what the new pack of monsters made them. It's to the point where you hear Kronos, Karma, and Franky suddenly say, "Damn! I just ghosted," and that is always amusing. We seem to have a lot of fun at night chatting on vent and watching my body parts fly across the map. Perhaps some of you should join us for a few games to fully understand at what difficulty it is, and why it's good enough for us.
DM - Arid
DM - Arlon
DM - Ashlar-beta1
DM - BloodGulch-2-fix2
DM - Head2HeadPinBallWarz-PBG-D
DM - Kotam
DM - Osiris2
DM - Pathogen-1
DM - Ravine_V3-INV-PD2
DM - XibalbaE
DM - Old_Brewhouse-v1-HB
Plus a few more that I can't remember the names too.
Wail - Could you maybe give us an explanation on how exactly anything over 200 DR works? you would think that at 200, you couldn't take any more damage, seeing as that is equal to 100% Damage Reduction. DR suddenly became effective for all of my characters at around 315. Anyone else remember when it was for them?
I don't think that the maps need to be too much harder than what the new pack of monsters made them. It's to the point where you hear Kronos, Karma, and Franky suddenly say, "Damn! I just ghosted," and that is always amusing. We seem to have a lot of fun at night chatting on vent and watching my body parts fly across the map. Perhaps some of you should join us for a few games to fully understand at what difficulty it is, and why it's good enough for us.
Well I havent been around much and only spent a couple of hours playing with the new monsters on the server (which I have to say is ace I love them)
Im pretty split on this one and have to say Toxic has come across with the most logical response yet. Im only level 77 ( I think) even so ill still go out an dance about on the later levels with KK and the rest of the high level playes because staying in a hole with a small field of vision shooting what ever manages to stumble into my cross hairs isnt exactly my idea of fun. But as was also mentioned whe I do go out and dance on the later waves (probably 9+) I die within maby a minute of being out there.
Now this means very little XP and I can understand why so many people would want to sit and hide because going out every round whilst you on the first 0-150 level slog is suicide.
So I think the real question is how can you find the balance ? My initial thought would be lower the hardness of monsters and reducing hiding spots but as Toxic said this could anoy people who favour the grinding method, but lowering monster levels and leaving in the hiding spots would mean that people would get uber amounts of points and not have to work for it. (not that hiding is working for it but at least it takes a lot longer to kill the monsters at the moment than if you made them easier)
I have no real suggestions of how to balance this out just my view of the problem. Personaly id be in favour or making the monsters easier, reducing hiding spots but maby including areas that are more easily defendable ?
Im pretty split on this one and have to say Toxic has come across with the most logical response yet. Im only level 77 ( I think) even so ill still go out an dance about on the later levels with KK and the rest of the high level playes because staying in a hole with a small field of vision shooting what ever manages to stumble into my cross hairs isnt exactly my idea of fun. But as was also mentioned whe I do go out and dance on the later waves (probably 9+) I die within maby a minute of being out there.
Now this means very little XP and I can understand why so many people would want to sit and hide because going out every round whilst you on the first 0-150 level slog is suicide.
So I think the real question is how can you find the balance ? My initial thought would be lower the hardness of monsters and reducing hiding spots but as Toxic said this could anoy people who favour the grinding method, but lowering monster levels and leaving in the hiding spots would mean that people would get uber amounts of points and not have to work for it. (not that hiding is working for it but at least it takes a lot longer to kill the monsters at the moment than if you made them easier)
I have no real suggestions of how to balance this out just my view of the problem. Personaly id be in favour or making the monsters easier, reducing hiding spots but maby including areas that are more easily defendable ?
Aih PittaH TeH F00l !!!1!11
I myself never hide when levelling up (unless asked by someone for the purpose of making the monsters level down.) I find that being dead is practically the same as hiding, except I get to watch other players. I understand that the server would be difficult without hiding places. This is why my solution calls for easier monsters in addition to the removal of safe zones.ToxicWaste wrote:Well this is an age old issue, not a new one. Do you find fun in a challenge? Or do you find fun in racking up XP and maxing your abilities? At the end of the day, that's what it is all about. Anyone who thinks one is right and the other is wrong, is well, wrong.
The server cannot be both at the same time. It's map specific, and it's up to those who do the voting. If you have all maps with no hiding places, you piss off half the population. If you have all hiding places, you piss off the other half. And what do you do when one night you're in the mood for one, and the next you're in the mood for another? Not everyone likes the same thing all the time.
Me personally, I generally appreciate a challenge more than racking up the XP. I find grinding it out to be boring. I'd rather face overwhelming odds, and prevail against them, then basically stepping on an ant which poses no threat. But that's me....
But let's be honest here. Those of you asking for no hiding places, what level are you? How long have you been playing here? Did you ever use hiding places on your way to level 300? Why should you have the benefit of having used hiding places, while a new person has to face the challenge of level 300 monsters without the same benefit?
In other words, I think there's a dump truck full of hypocricy here. Those of you asking for no hiding places: volunteer to reset yourselves back to level 25 and I'll be more impressed with your desire for a challenge.
In the mean time, let's follow Wail's lead in trying to find a real solution to the problem.
Rich (TW)
This way, low levels can still survive for awhile if they try, and monsters on higher waves represent a challenge to higher levels. As it stands, no monsters challenge anyone, because at any time, you can warp back to a safe zone, heal, and go back to fighting. What if you were playing TAM against someone who was way better than you, and you were just about to finally kill him and he translocated to a place where he was invulnerable, and could heal himself?
It is because of this that unmodded invasion is a difficult gametype. The stock maps have no "secret rooms" and require you to use the map's terrain to your advantage. The hardest monsters are Warlords, yet you only win about 50% of the time. This is due in part to the fact that there is no RPG system, which is why we need more difficult monsters on later waves.
Other issues:
This is, quite untrue from my perspective. My first post was entirely civil. I addressed the issue of server difficulty with my normal amount of aggression. The difference between myself and Redeemer is that my aggression was directed towards no one, and his aggression was directed towards me. Statements like "Also, when was the last time you actually played MM for a significant amount of time? I've seen you on the server 1 time in the past month, and it was also only for half a map." discounts my knowledge, which in turn, detracts from the supposed validity of my opinions.honestly Desko, the only one being "openly agressive" in this post is you.
Quite. We don't really interact much. If you knew me better, you would have become numb to my arrogance by now. However, it would appear as though you are still affected by it. The solution is that I either expose you to more of it until you accept that it is the way I am, or we keep our distance. I am inclined towards the latter.Well, most things you say come off as rather arrogant. I hate arrogance. That's probably my issue.
Not quite. You see, in my posts, I am directing my agression at no one in particular, whereas in YOUR responses, you openly mock me and bash others. This is where we differ.What I find amusing about this is that I've already proven my point. I've responded to your topic in the same manner you respond in other topics,
It appears that you are particularly affected by what you believe to be "my tone of voice." For this reason, I suggest that you take everything I type with a grain of salt. Do this, and I promise that our relationship will improve.
Last edited by Desko on Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When submersed in a liquid, creatures with lungs are typically unable to breathe.
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DW_WailofSuicide
- DW Clan Member
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:00 am
I'm not seeing how this is likely. I think "easier" monsters is an ok directive -- WailLords and Sliths have been complained about a lot, but their damage is actually pretty moderate and (IMO) in line with stock invasion monsters for their points value.This way, low levels can still survive for awhile if they try, and monsters on higher waves represent a challenge to higher levels.
The thing is, RPG creates a situation where monsters are very easy for high level players as long as there are low level players alive. If there are no low levels alive, which can happen quite easily even with stock power level monsters, then monsters can become virtually unkillable. The middle ground is really hard to hit, and it's more of a fault of how RPG works in general.
That's not entirely true. The challenge in RPG invasion is in how much experience you can gain. Given that dying stops you completely and sometimes carries other penalties, it's usually better to stay alive. The imperative to stay alive at all costs comes from (a) the fact that you've got a team of people who want to play the next round without starting from scratch and (b) the fact that we've got a wave 16 monster who is an experience cow (Lucifer). Thus reaching wave 16 is of utmost importance to people, and they will hide and wait out a wave instead of trying to gain more experience.As it stands, no monsters challenge anyone, because at any time, you can warp back to a safe zone, heal, and go back to fighting.
As I suggested before, if 3 waves time out then Lucifer doesn't spawn would, at least by my guess, mitigate this effect. You'd have some impetus to actually go out and kill monsters in a way that would affect not only yourself but the whole "team."
Yeah, I agree. I mean, invasion without RPG is actually quite challenging. And while RPG makes it feel more "full-featured" in terms of having abilities that can do different things to make it interesting, in some ways I prefer the standard mode. It's more challenging, for sure. Shooting for a 50-50 is kind of unrealstic though, 75-25 or thereabouts is more appropriate.It is because of this that unmodded invasion is a difficult gametype. The stock maps have no "secret rooms" and require you to use the map's terrain to your advantage. The hardest monsters are Warlords, yet you only win about 50% of the time. This is due in part to the fact that there is no RPG system, which is why we need more difficult monsters on later waves.
Toxic is completely understanding of the problem in regard to how hard to make the server, and the consequences if you adjust one way, then you get complaints from one half etc. etc.
Since the first month of having the server running, we have been trying all sorts of things to even things out, but it is extremely complex and frankly will never be perfect. Theres only so much you can do with a gametype. Especially when its a public server, theres all sorts of things to think about and we are trying to appeal to the broadest base of players, young and old, experienced and inexperienced. Just try to make the best of things, and have fun while doing so.
Resetting is a good way to see it from a new players point of view also...:cheers:
Also of note, I used to look forward to the day that the engineer class would be available, however after seeing it on other servers, its just a new way to totally lopside the balance in regard to the sentinels. Furthermore, if the engineers can "make" their own hiding spaces, then that will make the problem even worse. I'm leaning on not having that aspect added if it were to ever come out...
Since the first month of having the server running, we have been trying all sorts of things to even things out, but it is extremely complex and frankly will never be perfect. Theres only so much you can do with a gametype. Especially when its a public server, theres all sorts of things to think about and we are trying to appeal to the broadest base of players, young and old, experienced and inexperienced. Just try to make the best of things, and have fun while doing so.
Resetting is a good way to see it from a new players point of view also...:cheers:
Also of note, I used to look forward to the day that the engineer class would be available, however after seeing it on other servers, its just a new way to totally lopside the balance in regard to the sentinels. Furthermore, if the engineers can "make" their own hiding spaces, then that will make the problem even worse. I'm leaning on not having that aspect added if it were to ever come out...
Would it be possible to modify the mutator to change the monster levels to something the server administrator could change at will? For example, on wave one, the monsters are level 30, wave two level 40, wave three level 50, and so on. This would be quite useful, because it would allow Wraith to easily modify the difficulty of the server.
I need to learn more about writing mutators...
I need to learn more about writing mutators...
When submersed in a liquid, creatures with lungs are typically unable to breathe.
There are already settings to change the monster hardness per level. As it stand now, the problem is when there are only level 100 players and its turned up too high, then they couldn't kill a nali cow on wave 1. Once a certain point is reached, and if its only players that are all about the same level give or take a few levels, then the creatures become nearly unkillable, no matter what wave/creature it is...
Sure someone could write up some code to change it, but there are many interdependancies with the rpg mods/creatures etc, as it stands, and once you start doing one thing, it affects alot of other things.....a big cascading effect if you will....
Sure someone could write up some code to change it, but there are many interdependancies with the rpg mods/creatures etc, as it stands, and once you start doing one thing, it affects alot of other things.....a big cascading effect if you will....