Reality Check

[DW_Mobius]

Well this is an age old issue, not a new one. Do you find fun in a challenge? Or do you find fun in racking up XP and maxing your abilities? At the end of the day, that's what it is all about. Anyone who thinks one is right and the other is wrong, is well, wrong.

The server cannot be both at the same time. It's map specific, and it's up to those who do the voting. If you have all maps with no hiding places, you piss off half the population. If you have all hiding places, you piss off the other half. And what do you do when one night you're in the mood for one, and the next you're in the mood for another? Not everyone likes the same thing all the time.

Me personally, I generally appreciate a challenge more than racking up the XP. I find grinding it out to be boring. I'd rather face overwhelming odds, and prevail against them, then basically stepping on an ant which poses no threat. But that's me....

But let's be honest here. Those of you asking for no hiding places, what level are you? How long have you been playing here? Did you ever use hiding places on your way to level 300? Why should you have the benefit of having used hiding places, while a new person has to face the challenge of level 300 monsters without the same benefit?

In other words, I think there's a dump truck full of hypocricy here. Those of you asking for no hiding places: volunteer to reset yourselves back to level 25 and I'll be more impressed with your desire for a challenge.

In the mean time, let's follow Wail's lead in trying to find a real solution to the problem.

Rich (TW)

I myself never hide when levelling up (unless asked by someone for the purpose of making the monsters level down.) I find that being dead is practically the same as hiding, except I get to watch other players. I understand that the server would be difficult without hiding places. This is why my solution calls for easier monsters in addition to the removal of safe zones.

This way, low levels can still survive for awhile if they try, and monsters on higher waves represent a challenge to higher levels. As it stands, no monsters challenge anyone, because at any time, you can warp back to a safe zone, heal, and go back to fighting. What if you were playing TAM against someone who was way better than you, and you were just about to finally kill him and he translocated to a place where he was invulnerable, and could heal himself?

It is because of this that unmodded invasion is a difficult gametype. The stock maps have no "secret rooms" and require you to use the map's terrain to your advantage. The hardest monsters are Warlords, yet you only win about 50% of the time. This is due in part to the fact that there is no RPG system, which is why we need more difficult monsters on later waves.


Other issues:

honestly Desko, the only one being "openly agressive" in this post is you.

This is, quite untrue from my perspective. My first post was entirely civil. I addressed the issue of server difficulty with my normal amount of aggression. The difference between myself and Redeemer is that my aggression was directed towards no one, and his aggression was directed towards me. Statements like "Also, when was the last time you actually played MM for a significant amount of time? I've seen you on the server 1 time in the past month, and it was also only for half a map." discounts my knowledge, which in turn, detracts from the supposed validity of my opinions.

Well, most things you say come off as rather arrogant. I hate arrogance. That's probably my issue.

Quite. We don't really interact much. If you knew me better, you would have become numb to my arrogance by now. However, it would appear as though you are still affected by it. The solution is that I either expose you to more of it until you accept that it is the way I am, or we keep our distance. I am inclined towards the latter.

What I find amusing about this is that I've already proven my point. I've responded to your topic in the same manner you respond in other topics,

Not quite. You see, in my posts, I am directing my agression at no one in particular, whereas in YOUR responses, you openly mock me and bash others. This is where we differ.

It appears that you are particularly affected by what you believe to be "my tone of voice." For this reason, I suggest that you take everything I type with a grain of salt. Do this, and I promise that our relationship will improve.

Ok.

[hamburger]

I had tested ut2004rpg on my own (Just to learn more about class) with a few way back before i reach level 100 on dw server. Myself is level 300+ while the rest are below level 100. With the default monster adjustment 0.25% from druid. The same stat point of 10 per level and db 290, dr 350. And also higher max db of 400 and max dr of 500.

It deal almost instagib damage from Krall, Mercenary... monster on default wave difficulty. About wave 2 onward. I cant kill the monster but they could ghost me easily within 2 - 3 hits.

I tested on 0.15%, it was much better but they could still send me out unless i was a lower level.

0.05% is the best but that will be too easy for the last player alive.

(Also - more stat point per level will also make the monsters harder. And require more db and dr in order to kill.)

So DW monsters will be even harder than the default one.

:cheers:

[CrayZ]

The only way I can compare this is by looking at another of my fav invasion servers.. invasion 24/7.

Now each server is very different, considering the fact that 24/7 does not use druid's system and uses the weapon of power system, which requires much more teamwork, as well as the fact that there are about 10 globe drops per map and maybe 15 triple dmgs. The monster adjustment factor is .46 there, which is a good bit higher than MM. Also, only 5 points are given out for each level up and a character starts at lv 10. The server, to make it even made the max dr 350.. which makes someone a "brick" able to sustain large amounts of damage without dying (only queens and warlords took off more than 1 damage).

However, it is much harder to get xp as a brick because most people get 2k xp per game (on average) and by lv 100 you need about 10k xp to lvl up and 150 30k xp, making it very hard to level and much more so with 350 dr because of the amount of xp points needed to get to that level of dr which makes you tough to kill, as well as getting vampirism (remember, no medics, you have to get it all yourself).

The other option for people would be to be a Damage bonus whore, as there is NO damage bonus cap. The most i have ever seen someone have of damage bonus is about 600, which makes titans a 1 hit kill but 600 is 120 levels itself and most people that are db whore have almost no dr, making them very susceptible to dying easily.

Why am I using this as a comparison? I am using it simply because it shows how tough it is to make a perfect server. This server has been tweaked since 2004 when the game came out.. and people still complain about it. I like it because of how much teamwork is required to get even 1 person the tools to survive wave 16. It makes the first 15 waves all about preparing for the last wave, which gives it a all for one, one for all feel, which is refreshing.

The biggest compliment i can give to Monster Mash server is that it is fun to play. Only a handful of invasion servers are fun to play for me. MM is one of them. Now, I like the server as it is, but i can see that for high level players it is easy... i see the same people get 5k + almost every game. I can see why it would be easy for these specific players. However, the opinion of the majority veto the opinion of a group of players (even if this group of players contributes the most to the server). In a perfect world everyone would be satisfied, but unfortunately, this is not one. I say do what is best for the majority, and you will have people coming back for more.


Btw, First post. Hi there everybody.

PS: sorry for the post 4 months after the last one.. its late and i was trolling :)

[d2frob]

The so-called hard maps have an issue - most, if not all, have at least some sort of hiding place. Typically this will be safe enough for high levels to wipe out the wave.

The map is then just a sit and hide for all but the highest levels and presents no challenge. ie the monster never reach the levels they 'should' be reaching.

I'd like a couple of truley challenging maps, and yes, i'd be oh so happy to start at level 25 :P

This is no way a dig at the easy maps, i can most definately hold my hands up to making the most out of them ;) but purely to add to the variety of server :)

[MONKEYSPUNK]

Aah I see the discussion about the server has come around again! I thought it was about time for it to resurface! In a way i'm glad it has as it's the first time it has come up since the closure of UI and therefore it gives newer members of the community chance to read, absorb and express their views.
I personally think that the game play is right as it stands. I think that the maps are fine as they are, the monsters are the right level of difficulty and the RPG system does not need to be tweaked. The guys behind the DW server are top drawer in my book. They work hard to keep the server at the number 1 spot for Invasion which i'm sure is no mean feat. :salute:

IMO, i think the way to combat the issues raised in previous posts would be to leave the maps and monster difficulty alone but increase the map rotation available on the server. There are maps available that have been taken off the server to allow for new maps to come in which is always a good thing, but, alot of maps are now well overplayed. Everyone knows which maps these are. A few weeks ago a few of us (Acy, Clasko, kronos, Celtic and myself) voted for maps which hardly ever get played and surprise surprise, we got nailed on each of them! It was just too difficult for us and everyone else. No monsters had been tweaked, no hiding spots erased or anything. From this i think if the maps were rotated more frequently, older maps brought in and then taken out every few weeks, it may balance things out again.

As a final note, as i said above, this post is a good chance for the newer players to have their say about the server. Lets keep it to that and not make it into a public slanging match between community members.

[Desko]

The server has taken an expected turn. The monsters have reached incredible difficulty, to the point where even our highest player, Kronos, is forced into hiding on occasion. As far as I can tell, the monster difficulty has been ramped up for the sole reason that the server now has levels 400+ and levels 70 and below playing together. These were some ideas I was toying with.

The first one was an impossible dream. A separate server for each level bracket. One for 25-100, 100-175, 175-250, 250-325, 325-400, and so on. The idea being that once your character reached a certain level, his record would be transfered to the .INI file on the server of the next bracket. Sadly, I think none of us have the resources to accomplish anything close to this.

The other one was a bit more possible. What would happen if it were made far more difficult to level up, but doing so was more rewarding? By that I mean, you might increase the required XP to level, but also increase the amount of points you gain. By doing this, it would be possible to decrease the level gap and it would be therefore more easy to work with the monsters.

So those are my ideas, take 'em or leave 'em.

[DW_Wraith]

One way to keep the monsters more managable on server 1 is to keep the lower level players alive! If you let them all die, then you are just killing yourself in the end by the monsters adjusting themselves to the lowest level player that is still living. Teamwork is still needed to a degree, and maybe more now that there are higher level players now than ever before.

[Envy]

Hey all!

Just wanted to say I love the MM server, an excellent waste of time.

One thing I've noticed with the server that makes it oh so easy is the Mine Layer. Hate me for it if you will, but removing, or reducing the damage it does, might help. On the other hand, it might not matter to the lvl 200's with max DB, just the lower lvls trying to climb up.

Just my opinion, Great server guys!

[CrayZ]

Wraith if you want to increase the teamwork aspect.. I would suggest that you lower the raw strength of the monsters a good bit, but raise the monster adjustment factor, which gives the monsters a percentage of our stats... that way if the lower levels are kept alive the waves are easier.. and it makes teamwork a much larger part of the game and makes the game harder for the higher levels when they are the last ones left since the monsters will be so powerful (for example, a monster with 40% of kronos's stats is a strong monster, if hes alone it will be tough for him)

Just a suggestion, I just want to see how everyone else feels about it.

[DW_ACY]

Wraith if you want to increase the teamwork aspect.. I would suggest that you lower the raw strength of the monsters a good bit, but raise the monster adjustment factor, which gives the monsters a percentage of our stats... that way if the lower levels are kept alive the waves are easier.. and it makes teamwork a much larger part of the game and makes the game harder for the higher levels when they are the last ones left since the monsters will be so powerful (for example, a monster with 40% of kronos's stats is a strong monster, if hes alone it will be tough for him)

Just a suggestion, I just want to see how everyone else feels about it.

That is already being done CrayZ. If Kronos or myself are out heir alone at the end of a wave and no one else is alive if we don't have a trans in a hidy hole to go back to it's game over, finished, nuff said.

The real issue is people feel that making it to luci every game and killing him is thier in alianable right rather than wow we made it and wow we have to now beat luci. When we make it great when we don't they bitch, and bitch, and bitch, whine, whine, whine complain, complain, complain, and complain, some more about this map sucks this map is hard, theirs not enough adren, is their a secret, is their a hidey hole. Man I chave multiple characters of various level and I just get tired of the luci wait instead of players trying to learn the map and kill their way to levels.

Okay enough of my grip session just want to let folks know that some times you must challenge yourself in order to see how good you have become.