AM balance?

[juice]

well what we ought to do then is to create a server solely for testing, and then have a bunch of chars imported to the test server. we wouldn't be able to keep swapping back in the interest of fair play for testing, so what happens on the test server stays on the test server.

in this way, we can allow the community to try out features that are currently being tested so that feedback can be received. i understand where you're coming from with not wanting to essentially "fix what ain't broke" but i'm sure you can agree there are some things that obviously weren't intended to be unbalanced but end up so on this server.

that way, we can make changes or little balance tweaks, let everyone who wants to test give feedback on said changes, and then be allowed to change everyone since everyone's had the opportunity to voice their thoughts on balance. i think what we have now is a system that could inherently be against such things, since we have two different server populations and no real method of testing new things separately or without breaking gameplay.

as i've said before, i'm always willing to learn what i must so that i could be of help.

EDIT: i'd also like to add that I am not pointing any fingers at balance problems or anything like that. i'm also not trying to flame anyone who contradicts me, but i think, especially in my former post, that i have a very valid point about atleast, on these servers, some discrepencies that have been overlooked in regards to DWRPG. i think it would be awesome to keep things going so that this server stays fresh and populated for a long time to come. i only post out of this interest.

[Scumsberg]

Removing the ability to have +22 weapons wouldn't break or gimp AMs in any way. That, in my opinion, would be a good first step toward balancing the classes. There's just too much to exploit and virtually no reason to even have that ability in the first place.

[Corky]

I've never even seen P.O.M. or Nahasapeetapetalon (spelling?) maintain globe and triple constantly, and they're the highest level WMs I can name on server 2. Both of them get (or got in POM's case, he hasn't been around in months) ruined by titan rocks on a semi regular basis.

those two dont ask for much copies, they use the weaps they spawn with most of the time, in POM's case, he hasnt played in like close to a year, i believe the ammo glitch was still around so inf petri all map. also in Naha's case he cant dodge and dies pretty much every wave :sgiggle:

MMs will see imbalances against AMs & WMs
AMs will see imbalances against MMs & WMs
WMs will see imbalances against AMs & MMs

balancing between classes is very tedious and delicate. just make the most out of the tools you have. also if a player doesnt answer your call for help Ex: copies, weaps, healing dont help them when they call for it, what goes around comes around.

[DW_ACY]

Removing the ability to have +22 weapons wouldn't break or gimp AMs in any way. That, in my opinion, would be a good first step toward balancing the classes. There's just too much to exploit and virtually no reason to even have that ability in the first place.

Not an exploit and not an issue of balance I have yet to see a AM globe and sustain a +22 all map! You are complaining way too much. This issue has been dealt with to DW satisfaction. It is not a character balance issue as Wail stated, it is a map balance issue. Know the difference. The double magic mod was removed for almost 2 years from the server and was reinstated to DW satisfaction. I will not get into all the Advantages vs Disadvantages of the classes because as stated it has been worked out to a workable balance for now.

Not too mention they have already been posted in other forums, meaning the justifications and reasons.

[Scumsberg]

If you still feel that way even after juice posted the numbers on why AMs are completely overpowered with it, then fine. It seems clear to me that class balance isn't a high priority for these servers, and the pressure to be balanced isn't there since it's PVM and not PVP. Btw, it's not complaining, it's constructive criticism in the interest of balance, but this isn't the first time I've gotten the impression it's not welcome here.

Considering this my concession - you win, enjoy your imbalanced AMs.

[Dynadin]

If you still feel that way even after juice posted the numbers on why AMs are completely overpowered with it, then fine. It seems clear to me that class balance isn't a high priority for these servers, and the pressure to be balanced isn't there since it's PVM and not PVP. Btw, it's not complaining, it's constructive criticism in the interest of balance, but this isn't the first time I've gotten the impression it's not welcome here.

Considering this my concession - you win, enjoy your imbalanced AMs.

As much as I hate to step in on a thread that DW members have tried to stop ... it is a game, that is all. If you are not having fun then move to another server run by someone else. The point is to enjoy yourself after all.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

[Some theorymachine]

Am I going crazy or is this absurd?

You're not going crazy, but you forgot the important fact that you can't use Double Magic and Triple Damage artifacts simultaneously. (You also can't Triple a Vorpal or Rage lightning gun either.)
The only thing that's really relevant as far as differences between WM and AM damage output is the +1 modifier against ADB. Damage wise [at least using Vorpal weapons, though presumably with others as well] ADB is equivalent to a +2 as far as damage bonus is concerned. So a Vorpal +10 is effectively Vorpal +12 when being held by a WM with max ADB. Granted, he's not getting the additional Vorpal chance, but it's better for the damage at least.

If you still feel that way even after juice posted the numbers on why AMs are completely overpowered with it, then fine. It seems clear to me that class balance isn't a high priority for these servers, and the pressure to be balanced isn't there since it's PVM and not PVP. Btw, it's not complaining, it's constructive criticism in the interest of balance, but this isn't the first time I've gotten the impression it's not welcome here.

Considering this my concession - you win, enjoy your imbalanced AMs.

If things were anywhere near as unbalanced as juice's numbers suggest then no one would play anything but AM. Fortunately, things are not nearly that bad.
It is a bit bogus in my mind that not only do AMs start with the two important artifacts everyone wants - Triple and Globe - But they can also roll their weapons at will (especially on maps with adren camping spots) and maximize them easily.

It's easy to rag on DruidsRPG for not thinking things through as far as abuseability of adrenaline, but consider that DisastrousConsequences (the server where these 3 classes originate) runs pretty much all standard DM and CTF maps. It's one thing to be on a level that has over 500 adrenaline lying around to pick up in big 50 adren kegs. It's another thing when the level has a total of 50 adren divided between 25 adren pills spread throughout the level. It's a lot less easy to roll weapons 'til your heart's content when you actually have to be running around the whole time to do it, instead of standing in a safe room corner somewhere pressing U until you get what you want.

There's also quite a big difference between the monster difficulty level on Druids and on Monster Mash - For really challenging maps you need a Globe to stay alive, while it's not necessary on Druids. The fact that it is [sometimes] necessary is a contributing factor to why the AM is powerful - And why Globe+Energy is such a staple build on the server (because Lucifer kills everyone in one shot, but his AI is stupid and can't respond to this tactic). It's actually one of the reasons why I'd prefer we don't have monsters that have 90,000,000,000,000 HP and do 999,999,999 damage per hit (aka Raptors, Lucifer). There are more ways to create challenging monsters than just pumping up the numbers, doing that only increases reliance on Triple and Globe.

[Scumsberg]

As much as I hate to step in on a thread that DW members have tried to stop ... it is a game, that is all. If you are not having fun then move to another server run by someone else. The point is to enjoy yourself after all.

Right, I know that, and far as I know I've never stated I wasn't having fun. We post these threads because we like the game and would like to see it more balanced, but again I just don't get the impression that the pressure to balance is there. Monsters don't care if they're raped and players don't really compete with each other outside of score, and even then it's not "real" competition.

The thing that bothers me most about these posts is the hyperbole we're met with - examples being Franky stating we thought this shit was "life and death" and you pointing out it's "just a game." Well duh. We're not about to explode in rage if nothing changes, we're just trying to be constructive. Juice and I come from games similar to this and balance suggestions were a big part of improving the game for the community. I think our mistake was assuming our critiques are as welcome here as they were for our other PVM/Invasion type games. As much as we try to back up our points with facts and numbers (even if they turn out to be miscalculated), it's not received in the same way and that's DW's right. We're grateful enough for a server to play on, that's why we donate, and if the game stays static we can deal with that. I do appreciate Wail's responses, though, since he has actual knowledge of the code base and doesn't get mad when we challenge things. :sbigsmile:

All I hope is that people understand criticism doesn't equal hate, nor does it need to be met with defensive hyperbole.

[Scumsberg]

[Some theorymachine]

Am I going crazy or is this absurd?

You're not going crazy, but you forgot the important fact that you can't use Double Magic and Triple Damage artifacts simultaneously. (You also can't Triple a Vorpal or Rage lightning gun either.)
The only thing that's really relevant as far as differences between WM and AM damage output is the +1 modifier against ADB. Damage wise [at least using Vorpal weapons, though presumably with others as well] ADB is equivalent to a +2 as far as damage bonus is concerned. So a Vorpal +10 is effectively Vorpal +12 when being held by a WM with max ADB. Granted, he's not getting the additional Vorpal chance, but it's better for the damage at least.

If you still feel that way even after juice posted the numbers on why AMs are completely overpowered with it, then fine. It seems clear to me that class balance isn't a high priority for these servers, and the pressure to be balanced isn't there since it's PVM and not PVP. Btw, it's not complaining, it's constructive criticism in the interest of balance, but this isn't the first time I've gotten the impression it's not welcome here.

Considering this my concession - you win, enjoy your imbalanced AMs.

If things were anywhere near as unbalanced as juice's numbers suggest then no one would play anything but AM. Fortunately, things are not nearly that bad.
It is a bit bogus in my mind that not only do AMs start with the two important artifacts everyone wants - Triple and Globe - But they can also roll their weapons at will (especially on maps with adren camping spots) and maximize them easily.

It's easy to rag on DruidsRPG for not thinking things through as far as abuseability of adrenaline, but consider that DisastrousConsequences (the server where these 3 classes originate) runs pretty much all standard DM and CTF maps. It's one thing to be on a level that has over 500 adrenaline lying around to pick up in big 50 adren kegs. It's another thing when the level has a total of 50 adren divided between 25 adren pills spread throughout the level. It's a lot less easy to roll weapons 'til your heart's content when you actually have to be running around the whole time to do it, instead of standing in a safe room corner somewhere pressing U until you get what you want.

There's also quite a big difference between the monster difficulty level on Druids and on Monster Mash - For really challenging maps you need a Globe to stay alive, while it's not necessary on Druids. The fact that it is [sometimes] necessary is a contributing factor to why the AM is powerful - And why Globe+Energy is such a staple build on the server (because Lucifer kills everyone in one shot, but his AI is stupid and can't respond to this tactic). It's actually one of the reasons why I'd prefer we don't have monsters that have 90,000,000,000,000 HP and do 999,999,999 damage per hit (aka Raptors, Lucifer). There are more ways to create challenging monsters than just pumping up the numbers, doing that only increases reliance on Triple and Globe.

Thanks for the reply. If Triple can't be used with Double Magic, what's the point of Double Magic? It would give a total of 220% damage (+10% per level) versus a triple which is 300% of the base weapon (i.e a +10 rage is 100% extra damage, combined with triple making it 500% total, right?) And if it's true Double can't be used with Globe (skeptical, can I get confirmation?), why would anyone use Double and not Triple+Globe? Why would the artifact exist when it's inferior and partially redundant? The only thing I can think of is its bonuses to magic triggers like vorpal, or maybe it increases passive damage like poison more than Triple? I guess we need to know how it affects magic modifiers versus Triple. Is a doubled pierce weapon more effective with Double or Triple, etc.?

If Double really is inferior and redundant to triple, maybe it should be moved to WM or MM since AMs always spawn with triple.

Our biggest beef was the combination of +22s with triple, but if that's not supported then our argument against it is moot.

[DW_ACY]

Who said anyone was mad?????? What you don't seem to understand it that your post reiterates questions and issues we have addressed or know about. Your dogged insistence is what is rather questionable. we do understand balance issues and we do understand what your saying but as Wail stated you don't have all the numbers and you do not have all the information. If you choose to ignore statement like we know the issue and we are working on it just not how you want it to be worked out you don't seem to hear that. Oh and next time you need to try and say that only the coder knows what's going on in the game realize that the people who admin the servers see and know quite a bit as well. So if you want to insult me again please do it to my face instead of in a round about way. Just so when then know where we stand with each other.