AM balance?

[DW_ACY]

[Some theorymachine]

Am I going crazy or is this absurd?

You're not going crazy, but you forgot the important fact that you can't use Double Magic and Triple Damage artifacts simultaneously. (You also can't Triple a Vorpal or Rage lightning gun either.)
The only thing that's really relevant as far as differences between WM and AM damage output is the +1 modifier against ADB. Damage wise [at least using Vorpal weapons, though presumably with others as well] ADB is equivalent to a +2 as far as damage bonus is concerned. So a Vorpal +10 is effectively Vorpal +12 when being held by a WM with max ADB. Granted, he's not getting the additional Vorpal chance, but it's better for the damage at least.

If you still feel that way even after juice posted the numbers on why AMs are completely overpowered with it, then fine. It seems clear to me that class balance isn't a high priority for these servers, and the pressure to be balanced isn't there since it's PVM and not PVP. Btw, it's not complaining, it's constructive criticism in the interest of balance, but this isn't the first time I've gotten the impression it's not welcome here.

Considering this my concession - you win, enjoy your imbalanced AMs.

If things were anywhere near as unbalanced as juice's numbers suggest then no one would play anything but AM. Fortunately, things are not nearly that bad.
It is a bit bogus in my mind that not only do AMs start with the two important artifacts everyone wants - Triple and Globe - But they can also roll their weapons at will (especially on maps with adren camping spots) and maximize them easily.

It's easy to rag on DruidsRPG for not thinking things through as far as abuseability of adrenaline, but consider that DisastrousConsequences (the server where these 3 classes originate) runs pretty much all standard DM and CTF maps. It's one thing to be on a level that has over 500 adrenaline lying around to pick up in big 50 adren kegs. It's another thing when the level has a total of 50 adren divided between 25 adren pills spread throughout the level. It's a lot less easy to roll weapons 'til your heart's content when you actually have to be running around the whole time to do it, instead of standing in a safe room corner somewhere pressing U until you get what you want.

There's also quite a big difference between the monster difficulty level on Druids and on Monster Mash - For really challenging maps you need a Globe to stay alive, while it's not necessary on Druids. The fact that it is [sometimes] necessary is a contributing factor to why the AM is powerful - And why Globe+Energy is such a staple build on the server (because Lucifer kills everyone in one shot, but his AI is stupid and can't respond to this tactic). It's actually one of the reasons why I'd prefer we don't have monsters that have 90,000,000,000,000 HP and do 999,999,999 damage per hit (aka Raptors, Lucifer). There are more ways to create challenging monsters than just pumping up the numbers, doing that only increases reliance on Triple and Globe.

Thanks for the reply. If Triple can't be used with Double Magic, what's the point of Double Magic? It would give a total of 220% damage (+10% per level) versus a triple which is 300% of the base weapon (i.e a +10 rage is 100% extra damage, combined with triple making it 500% total, right?) And if it's true Double can't be used with Globe (skeptical, can I get confirmation?), why would anyone use Double and not Triple+Globe? Why would the artifact exist when it's inferior and partially redundant? The only thing I can think of is its bonuses to magic triggers like vorpal, or maybe it increases passive damage like poison more than Triple? I guess we need to know how it affects magic modifiers versus Triple. Is a doubled pierce weapon more effective with Double or Triple, etc.?

If Double really is inferior and redundant to triple, maybe it should be moved to WM or MM since AMs always spawn with triple.

Our biggest beef was the combination of +22s with triple, but if that's not supported then our argument against it is moot.

Imagine that making assumptions about how DWRPG works and what they are seeing in the game verses what people know about it on these servers!

[Scumsberg]

Who said anyone was mad?????? What you don't seem to understand it that your post reiterates questions and issues we have addressed or know about. Your dogged insistence is what is rather questionable. we do understand balance issues and we do understand what your saying but as Wail stated you don't have all the numbers and you do not have all the information. If you choose to ignore statement like we know the issue and we are working on it just not how you want it to be worked out you don't seem to hear that. Oh and next time you need to try and say that only the coder knows what's going on in the game realize that the people who admin the servers see and know quite a bit as well. So if you want to insult me again please do it to my face instead of in a round about way. Just so when then know where we stand with each other.

Rotfl. Don't pretend like you and Franky don't meet these posts with hyperbole. This isn't the first time we've pointed out problems with AMs - the difference between you guys and Wail is Wail actually CORRECTS our mistakes with numbers instead of vaguely throwing out defenses that don't counter our original claims. Nowhere in your posts did you state Double couldn't be used with Triple. The fact that your post after this one is some kind of masturbatory celebration of our error is proof enough of that crap. Newsflash: this isn't a competition and we're not here to fight with you or deal with your indignant attitudes, nor do we have to appreciate them.

I'm done replying to you, thanks.

[DW_Ant]

If Double really is inferior and redundant to triple, maybe it should be moved to WM or MM since AMs always spawn with triple.

Our biggest beef was the combination of +22s with triple, but if that's not supported then our argument against it is moot.

Double Magic modifier has some advantages over the triple.
It doubles the magic ability (making the magic types more effective)
For example, an Energy +8 will provide more adrenaline than a Triple damage Energy +4.
Also Double Magic Modifier adrenaline use drains slower than the triple.

[juice]

[Some theorymachine]

Am I going crazy or is this absurd?

You're not going crazy, but you forgot the important fact that you can't use Double Magic and Triple Damage artifacts simultaneously. (You also can't Triple a Vorpal or Rage lightning gun either.)
The only thing that's really relevant as far as differences between WM and AM damage output is the +1 modifier against ADB. Damage wise [at least using Vorpal weapons, though presumably with others as well] ADB is equivalent to a +2 as far as damage bonus is concerned. So a Vorpal +10 is effectively Vorpal +12 when being held by a WM with max ADB. Granted, he's not getting the additional Vorpal chance, but it's better for the damage at least.

ah, I didn't know exactly how that worked. There's not too much "hard info" regarding such like that on the wiki, so I had to theory craft a bit since no one else could really answer me. That makes more sense, yes. I do still hold that 10% more damage (or as you say, a +2 weapon) could be tweaked a little. I suppose when I look at the advantages of AM(plussing weapons, adren skills for keeping adren high for triple / globe) and MM (very high ADR, automatic ai for safer farming) i suppose that I feel the advantages of WM seem to fall short of what it was intended to be. I mean, we can look at the AM as the hard tank, the guy with the globe on all the time, and we can look at the medic as the best support role and also quite tanky in and of itself. WM has to rely on vampirism for most of its tanking, so it follows that it would definitely be the clear cut damager at the cost of risk. I suppose my arguement lies in the idea that it's role as a damager isn't as well carved into the game as the roles of AM and MM are.

Does this make sense?

[DW_WailofSuicide]

[Some theorymachine]

Am I going crazy or is this absurd?

You're not going crazy, but you forgot the important fact that you can't use Double Magic and Triple Damage artifacts simultaneously. (You also can't Triple a Vorpal or Rage lightning gun either.)
The only thing that's really relevant as far as differences between WM and AM damage output is the +1 modifier against ADB. Damage wise [at least using Vorpal weapons, though presumably with others as well] ADB is equivalent to a +2 as far as damage bonus is concerned. So a Vorpal +10 is effectively Vorpal +12 when being held by a WM with max ADB. Granted, he's not getting the additional Vorpal chance, but it's better for the damage at least.

ah, I didn't know exactly how that worked. There's not too much "hard info" regarding such like that on the wiki, so I had to theory craft a bit since no one else could really answer me. That makes more sense, yes. I do still hold that 10% more damage (or as you say, a +2 weapon) could be tweaked a little. I suppose when I look at the advantages of AM(plussing weapons, adren skills for keeping adren high for triple / globe) and MM (very high ADR, automatic ai for safer farming) i suppose that I feel the advantages of WM seem to fall short of what it was intended to be. I mean, we can look at the AM as the hard tank, the guy with the globe on all the time, and we can look at the medic as the best support role and also quite tanky in and of itself. WM has to rely on vampirism for most of its tanking, so it follows that it would definitely be the clear cut damager at the cost of risk. I suppose my arguement lies in the idea that it's role as a damager isn't as well carved into the game as the roles of AM and MM are.

Does this make sense?

Well in general I don't think there's enough class differentiation at all. Particularly since the "most powerful" abilities can be used perfectly well by any class. It's a pretty big mistake in my eyes, but then DruidsRPG has also been pretty much about extending UT2004RPG (which was totally classless to begin with) and not about redesigning it.

As for "its role as a damager" - I'm not sure the WM's role so to speak is "as a damager." Vampirism is its most defining ability in my eyes, and the overall design goal with the WM (from what I can see) was to make a character class that any UT player could create and get all their normal weapons and be self-sufficient without have to learn how to use artifacts or any of that RPG-specific stuff.


I'm not sure if I'd put Medic as the best support role - They are supportive, sure, but the AM also has a support role which is arguably more important.

[DW_ACY]

Rotfl. Don't pretend like you and Franky don't meet these posts with hyperbole. This isn't the first time we've pointed out problems with AMs - the difference between you guys and Wail is Wail actually CORRECTS our mistakes with numbers instead of vaguely throwing out defenses that don't counter our original claims. Nowhere in your posts did you state Double couldn't be used with Triple. The fact that your post after this one is some kind of masturbatory celebration of our error is proof enough of that crap. Newsflash: this isn't a competition and we're not here to fight with you or deal with your indignant attitudes, nor do we have to appreciate them.

I'm done replying to you, thanks.

No where in your post did you ask the right question. You assumed that the AM was broken, and want to fix it. You did not have enough information or time playing the class to know the specifics about how it worked, on this server. Instead of coming in with your "observance", about the issue you could have asked the question without making a demand or statement about it needing to be fixed. I play and have all three classes, as most all DW do. We test and experience all the issues. Just because I don't know all the code or numbers does not mean I know nothing of how it balances.

My attitude is not indignant it is realistic, and knowledgeable. Especially about what has been done and said. So Newsflash I'm not competing, just tired of conjecture and people wanting to change something they don't know enough about. Or been here long enough to know why. So I will do everyone a favor and let only those who know all the numbers answer from now on!

Happy fragging

[Scumsberg]

As for "its role as a damager" - I'm not sure the WM's role so to speak is "as a damager." Vampirism is its most defining ability in my eyes, and the overall design goal with the WM (from what I can see) was to make a character class that any UT player could create and get all their normal weapons and be self-sufficient without have to learn how to use artifacts or any of that RPG-specific stuff.

Vampirism isn't much of a defining characteristic, though. It's essentially a crappier version of globe - high enough DR/HP and vampirism makes you almost immortal, except for titan rocks, high level raptors and extremely high level monsters in general when there are few people on. It's a tank skill for sure, but not true immortality. The plus side is it's free and always active, but maintaining globe on an AM can essentially be "free" too (or at least very easy and and low cost relative to potential +8 energy weapons).

The thing that sets WM apart in my eyes is loaded weapons and super weapons, but they're not refreshed per wave. It might be too powerful if they were, but what about something that adds at least +1 to whatever total you have up to your max on each wave? If you have 6 total and you use 3, you won't get 4 on the next wave as it is right now. But what if you did? That way a WM could bust some super weapons more regularly without having to worry about saving them for Lucifer or dying and losing all their gear to refresh them.

[DW_Ant]

Vampirism isn't much of a defining characteristic, though. It's essentially a crappier version of globe - high enough DR/HP and vampirism makes you almost immortal, except for titan rocks, high level raptors and extremely high level monsters in general when there are few people on. It's a tank skill for sure, but not true immortality. The plus side is it's free and always active, but maintaining globe on an AM can essentially be "free" too (or at least very easy and and low cost relative to potential +8 energy weapons).

WMs can globe, too.
& medics.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

As for "its role as a damager" - I'm not sure the WM's role so to speak is "as a damager." Vampirism is its most defining ability in my eyes, and the overall design goal with the WM (from what I can see) was to make a character class that any UT player could create and get all their normal weapons and be self-sufficient without have to learn how to use artifacts or any of that RPG-specific stuff.

Vampirism isn't much of a defining characteristic, though. It's essentially a crappier version of globe - high enough DR/HP and vampirism makes you almost immortal, except for titan rocks, high level raptors and extremely high level monsters in general when there are few people on. It's a tank skill for sure, but not true immortality. The plus side is it's free and always active, but maintaining globe on an AM can essentially be "free" too (or at least very easy and and low cost relative to potential +8 energy weapons).

The thing that sets WM apart in my eyes is loaded weapons and super weapons, but they're not refreshed per wave. It might be too powerful if they were, but what about something that adds at least +1 to whatever total you have up to your max on each wave? If you have 6 total and you use 3, you won't get 4 on the next wave as it is right now. But what if you did? That way a WM could bust some super weapons more regularly without having to worry about saving them for Lucifer or dying and losing all their gear to refresh them.

Yeah, but "a crappier version of globe" is still awesome. I mean honestly, you're saying it makes you "almost immortal" (which is true). That's a pretty clear sign it's overpowered. And both Globe and Vamp are overpowered, just in different ways.

[DW_FrankyTheFly]

The only thing wrong with AM is the constant abuse of vorp +22, and especially on lower waves. This is more a "players" issue then a class issue (You have a choice as an AM to be a total ass and abuse it or to be respectfull and use it has less as possible). That's why I made this forum post for finding a solution that would not mean get rid of the vorp +22 or the Double Magic.

Besides that their is absolutely no unbalance issue regarding the AM class.