AM balance?

[Scumsberg]

Yeah, but "a crappier version of globe" is still awesome. I mean honestly, you're saying it makes you "almost immortal" (which is true). That's a pretty clear sign it's overpowered. And both Globe and Vamp are overpowered, just in different ways.

Sure, I can agree it's slightly overpowered, but at what level do you expect players to not be stuck in cubby holes/safe zones? I'm 189 on my WM and I can finally run out into the fray with the exception of wave 13 (raptors), and I still die a ton from instagibbing titan rocks. One thing that would be discouraging is playing for over a year only to be stuck camping the entire time because a person conceivably couldn't jump into the action until level 300 or whatever the team decides is appropriate. This is something I'd rather not see - camping is boring and I couldn't do it for two years or however long it'd take.

WMs can globe, too.
& medics.

Yes, but it's not at all realistic on either class. WMs cannot sustain globe without an energy weapon and the odds of being spawned with a decent energy weapon are very low. I can sustain triple semi-regularly only because the increased damage translates to increased adrenaline gain, but globe doesn't do that. Same problem on MMs. There's also no guarantee of even having a globe. If it were so easy no one would die and we wouldn't need AMs.

[Aravona]

WMs cannot sustain globe without an energy weapon and the odds of being spawned with a decent energy weapon are very low

I refer to my OP... I can run a globe for a fair while as 13x WM with only 105 adren because the AMs on the server offer out weapons, people ask and people share. So not so much of a mute point. Same with artifacts to be fair.

I have both an AM and a WM... my AM can go out and play at level 53 and globe and have fun - but I dont score and I barely gain exp and the adren skills dont do enough to get me much more, but its fun. My WM 13X can go out with a globe, if I find one or a mate gives me one. I can utilise rejuv mines up til around wave 7/8 without using a globe tooo much.

To be honest I got too addicted to hiding with an infi link. I've given infi weps up for lent, to stop this behaviourial issue of mine. I'm going to make sure I'm not gonna 'require' or 'demand' certain weps to play. With rejuv mines +4 they're infi but better anyway. So I think it goes back to the same points still, its still as much an environmental issue as it is anything else. If your with good people, good players (NOT the same thing!) good weps passing around the map, then life is good. If the opposite is true, hell log off for a while imo :ssmile: or make an AM :P

[DW_WailofSuicide]

Yeah, but "a crappier version of globe" is still awesome. I mean honestly, you're saying it makes you "almost immortal" (which is true). That's a pretty clear sign it's overpowered. And both Globe and Vamp are overpowered, just in different ways.

Sure, I can agree it's slightly overpowered, but at what level do you expect players to not be stuck in cubby holes/safe zones? I'm 189 on my WM and I can finally run out into the fray with the exception of wave 13 (raptors), and I still die a ton from instagibbing titan rocks. One thing that would be discouraging is playing for over a year only to be stuck camping the entire time because a person conceivably couldn't jump into the action until level 300 or whatever the team decides is appropriate. This is something I'd rather not see - camping is boring and I couldn't do it for two years or however long it'd take.

To a certain extent monster difficulty has to scale with the capabilities of players, so you kind of have to have monsters that can basically instantly kill you to provide credible threats to high level WMs. Which - Yeah, I don't like getting instantly killed either but it kind of has to be there since Vamp can out-heal almost anything else. Similarly, Globe & Trans provide an emergency escapes you can just activate once your health gets low, which again means monsters kind of have to kill you outright to actually get you.

As for camping there's a couple factors that come into play there. The big one is simply that high level players are almost infinitely more powerful than low level (25) players - Monsters that are threatening to high level players are generally going to be deadly to low levels. If high level players in general were less overpowered then there would be less powerful monsters and less camping for "low levels." The other one is that you can "beat" any challenge just by out-waiting it in a level that's designed to exploit it. I wish there were a solution to this latter problem because camping should not be rewarded (but it is).

[DW_Ant]

Yes, but it's not at all realistic on either class. WMs cannot sustain globe without an energy weapon and the odds of being spawned with a decent energy weapon are very low. I can sustain triple semi-regularly only because the increased damage translates to increased adrenaline gain, but globe doesn't do that. Same problem on MMs. There's also no guarantee of even having a globe. If it were so easy no one would die and we wouldn't need AMs.

WMs don't need to sustain their globe. If their hp gets too low from a raptor bite or something, they can turn that on for a few seconds to replenish life and toggle it back off.

AMs don't have that replenishing ability so their globe is their life.

[warhead2]

Wow this is a lively discussion :). I would like to chip in a few things to help if i can. ACY, can you please post some link(s) to the thread(s) you mention which talk about this issue? maybe we should continue this discussion on one of those threads?

I would generally agree scum and wail and franky that certain things about the am seem a tad over powered, but as Wail said, it's not so very bad, so i can live with it. I think franky well said that the worst issue is the +22 vorpal, which can be abused.

however, i don't think it should be removed from game. reason for me is that it's real useful for survival mode when monster level is real high, then they need that vorpal to survive, not just for their sake, but to keep whole team alive to next wave. sometimes the team's only salvation is the AM who can stay alive using this tactic.

here is my suggestion and two cents: just make the DM artifact to be dropped by monsters so other classes can get one too. problem solved.

now i have played all three chars now to decent levels so i know how it feels to be each one. as a WM i have no trouble running both globe and triple constantly, given the situation is good enough for that. a sufficiently high level WM WILL almost always get both the globe and triple eventually and then keep them the rest of game b/c a high enough WM will usually survive well, so i'm okay with AM's starting with them, because as a WM i will just pick them up along the way and keep them rest of the game. I love the WM. It is my favorite class! The vamp gives the WM a huge advantage over the AM. Not having vamp means the AM must constantly attend to his globle, which actually can be very difficult! If there was any doubt that a WM could globe and triple constantly, there surely should be no doubt that a WM could at least vamp and triple constantly. My WM does not worry about titans. He has maxed Quick Foot, Power Jump and Air Master, and he routinely survives all titans waves without ever using globe, and just tripling the MP5/Link/Shock(heck even Mines) all over their ugly butts all wave long. Granted, I can move very well so it depends on the player. However, IF i get hit by rock, then i survive because of Ghost, and then after that I stick to using globe and keeping safe until next wave and then i get another Ghost. It's a very nice way for a WM to play and I enjoy it very much.

An AM however has to always worry about maintaining his globe, which puts him at disadvantage. Here's the trick: even if an AM could globe and triple all the time (which actually they cant), what weapon do you suppose he does this with? Answer: NRG Flak. This is a huge disadvantage compared to the WM who can easily run a triple all the time and use MP5, which depending on the situation, can easily trump the NRG Flak in terms of kill rate. Yes AM can run the Inf MP5 but it's not so easy, adren runs dangerously low and then they gotta switch out to the Nrg Flak but WM's don't need to do that.

Believe me, I have played both WM and AM and noticed these subtilties. Playing an AM how often did I wish i could run my tripled mp5 like i did when i played as a WM.In my own experience, when I played as an high level WM, the only high level AM's who kept up with me or beat me were the ones using the +22 Vorpal Shock Rifle. otherwise, their globe/triple/nrg flak just could not keep up with my vamp/triple/mp5. So, there is a subtle balance going on here. You don't always see it right away, but as I have played with all the chars, these little things have come out to me. In general i'm okay with the way things are, but acknowledge some pretty good points are being raised, so i would say if DM (double magic) was just made a monster drop, it would help maintain the status quo. Granted maybe the other treads always addressed this particular point, i have not read them yet, but hope i will do so and get some learning.
Cheers all and thanks for a gr8 server.

[Scumsberg]

Wow this is a lively discussion :). I would like to chip in a few things to help if i can. ACY, can you please post some link(s) to the thread(s) you mention which talk about this issue? maybe we should continue this discussion on one of those threads?

I would generally agree scum and wail and franky that certain things about the am seem a tad over powered, but as Wail said, it's not so very bad, so i can live with it. I think franky well said that the worst issue is the +22 vorpal, which can be abused.

however, i don't think it should be removed from game. reason for me is that it's real useful for survival mode when monster level is real high, then they need that vorpal to survive, not just for their sake, but to keep whole team alive to next wave. sometimes the team's only salvation is the AM who can stay alive using this tactic.

here is my suggestion and two cents: just make the DM artifact to be dropped by monsters so other classes can get one too. problem solved.

now i have played all three chars now to decent levels so i know how it feels to be each one. as a WM i have no trouble running both globe and triple constantly, given the situation is good enough for that. a sufficiently high level WM WILL almost always get both the globe and triple eventually and then keep them the rest of game b/c a high enough WM will usually survive well, so i'm okay with AM's starting with them, because as a WM i will just pick them up along the way and keep them rest of the game. I love the WM. It is my favorite class! The vamp gives the WM a huge advantage over the AM. Not having vamp means the AM must constantly attend to his globle, which actually can be very difficult! If there was any doubt that a WM could globe and triple constantly, there surely should be no doubt that a WM could at least vamp and triple constantly. My WM does not worry about titans. He has maxed Quick Foot, Power Jump and Air Master, and he routinely survives all titans waves without ever using globe, and just tripling the MP5/Link/Shock(heck even Mines) all over their ugly butts all wave long. Granted, I can move very well so it depends on the player. However, IF i get hit by rock, then i survive because of Ghost, and then after that I stick to using globe and keeping safe until next wave and then i get another Ghost. It's a very nice way for a WM to play and I enjoy it very much.

An AM however has to always worry about maintaining his globe, which puts him at disadvantage. Here's the trick: even if an AM could globe and triple all the time (which actually they cant), what weapon do you suppose he does this with? Answer: NRG Flak. This is a huge disadvantage compared to the WM who can easily run a triple all the time and use MP5, which depending on the situation, can easily trump the NRG Flak in terms of kill rate. Yes AM can run the Inf MP5 but it's not so easy, adren runs dangerously low and then they gotta switch out to the Nrg Flak but WM's don't need to do that.

Believe me, I have played both WM and AM and noticed these subtilties. Playing an AM how often did I wish i could run my tripled mp5 like i did when i played as a WM.In my own experience, when I played as an high level WM, the only high level AM's who kept up with me or beat me were the ones using the +22 Vorpal Shock Rifle. otherwise, their globe/triple/nrg flak just could not keep up with my vamp/triple/mp5. So, there is a subtle balance going on here. You don't always see it right away, but as I have played with all the chars, these little things have come out to me. In general i'm okay with the way things are, but acknowledge some pretty good points are being raised, so i would say if DM (double magic) was just made a monster drop, it would help maintain the status quo. Granted maybe the other treads always addressed this particular point, i have not read them yet, but hope i will do so and get some learning.
Cheers all and thanks for a gr8 server.

This whole "WMs can sustain triple and globe" thing is what's confusing me lately. I'm not calling anyone a liar, and I'm not saying this to brag, but if I'm the top scorer or near the top scorer on most games I play from wave 1 to wave 16, and I can only semi-regularly maintain triple with infinite MP5, then how in the hell do you guys do it? I'm really at a loss here. Triple is about the only thing I can sustain because it gives me last-hit capability to keep adrenaline up, but it's not guaranteed to the point that I can run triple 100% of the time. When there are 15-20 people on, the odds of getting a last hit go down dramatically, meaning adrenaline goes down dramatically. If I can't sustain triple constantly with a 440% damage hitscan weapon, how on earth do you sustain triple AND globe on a WM with no adrenal drip or energy leech?

I'll paypal 10 bucks USD to any WM who can show me triple + globe sustained regularly on server 2. Completely serious about this.

Also, how would AMs be any less able to sustain triple + MP5? They have the same advantage as a WM with the exception of %10 less damage, which is often made up for by perfect weapons plussed over their max. They have adrenal drip AND energy leech to keep adrenaline flowing regardless of last hit capability, and last hitting with tripled MP5 is relatively easy (though not guaranteed as I pointed out) because it's hitscan. They can also roll themselves energy weapons (be it mp5, flak, minelayer, whatever) to top off their adrenaline supplies as necessary, where again a WM has to hope for such luck. An AM could camp a cubby hole with triple + MP5 and virtually never run out of adrenaline.

Now combining globe + triple to be out in the fray as an AM is another story, but I don't feel bad for them because they get the creme of the crop for weapons, artifacts and adrenaline (especially with maps that provide infinite boatloads of it). I mean, it's hard to feel sympathy for a class that has complete godmode outside of poison and burn (both of which do laughable damage with max DR).

I also don't feel bad for MMs because they have no excuse not to create an infinite MP5, grab a triple and do the exact same thing WMs do. A WM has to hope for an infinite MP5, a MM can guarantee a MAXED one. MMs have the best raw non-godmode tanking in the game and MP5's alt fire = instant health. They can combine this with AI to generate more XP than a WM can - and I've seen it done just yesterday by Corky who ended Primeval Treehome with over 15k score, more than I've ever made on a WM.

Tbh, I just can't swallow everyone piping in with "WMs can sustain triple and globe" but "it's not so easy on AMs!" Which of the two has adrenal drip? Which of the two has energy leech? Which of the two can use +4 energy weapons? Which of the two can use Double for +8 energy weapons? Which of the two has godmode versus physical damage? Which of the two has guaranteed artifacts? Which of the two can all but guarantee their weapon types via rolling? Etc., etc..

Anyway, fair points warhead, always enjoyed your posts.

[Seven_of_69]

I agree with Frankie that the only real unbalance is abuse of vorpal shock+22 at low monster levels. In that thread, I made a numerical suggestion using a sliding scale (based on monster level) as to how to counter its abuse without losing it completely when the monster level goes up high enough to warrant its need for for survival.

As for everything else, I don't consider any class to be overpowered. That's IMO so if it's numerically inaccurate or you don't agree, you can bite my pet titan. :stongue:

As for general tactics, mine have changed as my AM leveled up. Instead of constantly running out of ammo for multiple energy weapons, now I hardly use energy weapons at all and have tanked Luci with my only energy weapon being a minigun. It's about the worst weapon to use on Luci yet it's doable.

My ideal weapons are petri/freezing mp5, flak, rox, and link and freezing mines. Why? They do a lot more damage than energy. Depending on factors (there are always variables and exceptions), a petri/freezing is able to run both triple and globe for an entire wave. Even most non-petri/freezing/energy weapons will sustain both triple and globe somewhat though not as well or as long.

On that note, my WM can occasionally sustain both a triple and globe without energy. And I'm not talking about loading up on adren and having it run down, I mean maintain or even increase its quantity.

While AMs lack the vamp skill, that's easily counteracted with a vamp/healing/rejuv weapon, medics, medkits, kegs, health vials, etc. Most of the time I don't even need to globe before the titans come out. My AM had max DR about level 150-200 with a couple hundred HP bonus. The first time I took a direct seeker hit without globing and not dying/ghosting was a sweet day. :scool: Furthermore my AM had shields up level 4 about level 225. Even without any shield bonus, your 150 default shield goes a long ways to reduce damage. I'm not sure exactly how it works but it seems that with a certain amount of shield, both my AM and WM can survive a direct titan rock hit without getting insta'd.

I'm not against the idea of DMM being a possible monster drop but it's not a necessity. It is a very useful artifact and I always find new uses for it. Used with a resupply gun, you're getting resupply+10. My HP and shield go up nicely with rejuv+10. Vamp+16 is great for quick healing. Healing+8 heals my pet titans/myself/others quickly. Energy+8 is great for boosting adren when monster level goes up high enough that using a triple with energy causes adren loss. Lots of magic types make DMM useful. :sbigsmile:

Finally while an AM is indeed powerful, it takes a lot of time and effort to roll weapons. I don't waste time trying to roll "perfect" weapons every map. The necessary weapons also vary depending on the map, player count, and lowest player's level. I need a minimal core of one energy weapon and the rest is up to the MWM. I roll everything at once so the first petri/freezing is usually it, and the same for vamp and energy. It also makes every game different. :swink: Finally, on rare occasion, my AM doesn't even get an energy weapon until wave 16.

[Dynadin]

I also don't feel bad for MMs because they have no excuse not to create an infinite MP5, grab a triple and do the exact same thing WMs do. A WM has to hope for an infinite MP5, a MM can guarantee a MAXED one. MMs have the best raw non-godmode tanking in the game and MP5's alt fire = instant health. They can combine this with AI to generate more XP than a WM can - and I've seen it done just yesterday by Corky who ended Primeval Treehome with over 15k score, more than I've ever made on a WM.

If you are going to say something please read up on your information. A Medic weapon is only equivalent to a infi* ... it is base damage so even a +1 is better (actually asking admins it is equivalent to a +0.6). This was changed recently due to the EWC bug, which also no longer work on medic weapons. As for the AI, there is no point in getting monsters till over level 150 as they rely on your stats, and to get it maxed out it takes 60 levels (600 stat points) to do so. So yes, MM can score well, but only a lot later in game. At the same point you can constantly run a globe and triple. You constantly say one of the problems is greedy AMs. If you want to improve the server start a trend. Create an AM to make weapons for others for a while and maybe it will catch on. Do what you can to not only help yourself but others at the same time :)

[Scumsberg]

If you are going to say something please read up on your information. A Medic weapon is only equivalent to a infi* ... it is base damage so even a +1 is better (actually asking admins it is equivalent to a +0.6). This was changed recently due to the EWC bug, which also no longer work on medic weapons. As for the AI, there is no point in getting monsters till over level 150 as they rely on your stats, and to get it maxed out it takes 60 levels (600 stat points) to do so. So yes, MM can score well, but only a lot later in game. At the same point you can constantly run a globe and triple. You constantly say one of the problems is greedy AMs. If you want to improve the server start a trend. Create an AM to make weapons for others for a while and maybe it will catch on. Do what you can to not only help yourself but others at the same time :)

My bad, I haven't played my medic in around a year. Still doesn't really detract from the original point, though.

I haven't "constantly said" the problem is greedy AMs, I only responded once to the claim that they're generous as a whole. Some might be but by and large it's every man for himself on server 2 and I have no problem with that. Classes should be relatively self-sufficient. I don't depend on anyone to make my score for me, but I'm still grateful in the event that someone does toss something my way.

And no, I can't run globe and triple at the same time, that's why I have money riding on someone proving WMs can do it regularly.

[DW_Ant]

Classes should be relatively self-sufficient. I don't depend on anyone to make my score for me

I'm not fond of the classes being independent from others. Unfortunately they already are.