This is so ridiculous...

[DW_FrankyTheFly]

The thing is that in Monster Evo, XP is not just damage. In fact 2 things are to consider in ME to get XP and 1 thing to stay alive:

1) To get XP:

Knowledge:
The appropriate class, with the appropriate rank with the appropriate set of skills on the appropriate map with the appropriate team, and you get a winning combination.

Cautiousness and precision:
Don't die, stay alive. No dying = you keep your threat level at maximum rate. I died once in Iguazu, got 2200 at the end. I didn't died once on Iguazu, got 4300 xp at end. Be precise = hit your target first before others do, but without being greedy.

2) To live longer:

Patience and coordination:
Be patient, don't rush, wait for your teammates. Attack in group, never alone, be always on your guard, look behind you occasionally. Protect your fellow teammates, has they are a source of ammo (support), health (paladin) or safe-keepers (Berserker).


Now you can't blame Sal for knowing this stuff and I know he don't need to rush to score high, but is the score really the problem here? Or the problem is that you saw him rushing and killing everything while letting his team behind? Because that is 2 different things.

I'd rather have Sal not being ridiculously aggressive and killing everything on the map and getting 600 points than sal killing everything and getting 25 points and then 200 from end game XP, wouldn't you?

Well I like the actual system, although I would prefer low level maps to give at least more then 0 points all the way for high level player and I think the win XP was too nerfed too. The main problem here is that we all are somehow "counting" on the good behalf of the high level players to "not be tempted" by doing what you guys say that Sal is doing. In other words, the good thing to do when you have the power, is to restrain yourself to use it (to much), or at least, to " not Abuse it". Few players have this, what I call "sense of responsibility" in games, precisely because they claim that "it is a game" and honestly, mostly because they "don't give a shit", which, of course, I totally disapprove. Unfortunately their is no rules of "good conduct" in Monster Evo, you can't control the players behavior like in the army, but you can encourage "good behavior" by informing the people (like "plz don't rush, or wait for the others, etc.).

[SomethingToSay]

The thing is that in Monster Evo, XP is not just damage. In fact 2 things are to consider in ME to get XP and 1 thing to stay alive:

1) To get XP:

Knowledge:
The appropriate class, with the appropriate rank with the appropriate set of skills on the appropriate map with the appropriate team, and you get a winning combination.

Cautiousness and precision:
Don't die, stay alive. No dying = you keep your threat level at maximum rate. I died once in Iguazu, got 2200 at the end. I didn't died once on Iguazu, got 4300 xp at end. Be precise = hit your target first before others do, but without being greedy.

2) To live longer:

Patience and coordination:
Be patient, don't rush, wait for your teammates. Attack in group, never alone, be always on your guard, look behind you occasionally. Protect your fellow teammates, has they are a source of ammo (support), health (paladin) or safe-keepers (Berserker).


Now you can't blame Sal for knowing this stuff and I know he don't need to rush to score high, but is the score really the problem here? Or the problem is that you saw him rushing and killing everything while letting his team behind? Because that is 2 different things.

I'd rather have Sal not being ridiculously aggressive and killing everything on the map and getting 600 points than sal killing everything and getting 25 points and then 200 from end game XP, wouldn't you?

Yeah but knowing exactly which monsters give out more XP and when to use a manta to jump on a doom lord or monsters etc... most players won't know that even if they play, idk how he does.

Getting a high score and rushing through and killing everything while everyone else is healing etc is one and the same. People who work together as a team generally score right around what the team does, and the maps sal doesnt rush, he does too.

lol I love how you mention "be patient dont rush, heal up" etc. but guess what, when sal is ahead killing stuff, you don't really have time to heal up, you have to stay at sal's pace or you get next to nothing.

even if we say yes, sal is so very talented and amazing, that doesnt mean he should fully leave everyone behind just because he wont take as much damage or whatever.

some maps he's great, he's not pushing the pace of the match and lots of people get a chance to score well and do, others, like the resident match shown, he was ahead of just about everyone by a fair amount and everyone is desperately just trying to play catch up.


in some ways, i wish ant would implement an end game XP system OPPOSITE of what you suggested franky. you suggested that it should be based on # of points, meaning sal would get even more XP while the lower people get next to nothing, and I'd say make it the opposite, where if someone gets 2000, then the next people have 600 each, then the 2000 guy shouldn't get anything since he sucked up all the map's in-game XP points and the other people should get the bump to try and level the playing field and make leveling at least somewhat fair for everyone.

this would/could, also like you suggested, have a base amount, ie everyone gets 100 base, then the top performers get just a few extra, and lower performers get another 100, etc.




and actually, in response to thwart mentioning the level cap, you said "does it really matter if sal gets to the level cap before you?"

that's what you should be asking HIM in some cases. when you hit the max you're done, so whats the point of pushing the tempo of the map beyond what most people are ready for, and doing objectives yourself and jumping on doom lords with mantas so nobody else gets XP? what's the point of the people who rush and do those things rushing? i actually go at a pretty slow pace, since i know eventually we all hit the same wall, but even i want to get to rank 3 ASAP before slowing down, since paladins are next to worthless before rank 3

[DW_Ant]

I'm wondering this: If you have 3 players who are same level, but 1 of each of the classes, and they have no adren to use any abilities, who gets the most XP? It seems to be the case that berserks do, because they have higher damage.

I'll tell you what will happen. Under the assumption that all three players have matched skill levels and they are strictly playing for points, the winner will be determined by the map and (some probability)...
Most freelance maps (like in Divine and Torlan), the Berserkers will do well since they can stay out of danger easily, keep their health up (keeping their damage up), and still damage monsters faster than any other class.
On maps with ammo shortages (like in Utopia or Nocturne), the Supports will do well most of the time due to infinite ammo, ammo packs, and monster summons (that can still damage others while the other two classes must conserve their ammo). This is under the assumption that the Berserker didn't purchase enough ammo bonus and failed to pickup any ammo pickups the map offers.
On maps with plenty of ammo and high-damaging monsters (like in Xenomorph and Use of Weapons Level 7 [with sturdy weapons]), the Paladins will excel. They'll gain lots of adren for taking damage, allowing them to use more abilities. When they use more abilities, they get more threat.

However, I talked to ant and I said "Ant, if I'm deciding to make a mocking weapon +3 but someone makes the same weapon just with +3 damage, which will do more for me in terms of XP?", since more damage under this assumption means more XP. He told me though, that the mocking would. He said the damage you do would make no difference in regards to how much XP you get, which I thought was weird, and he said it was all about threat.

I've said that there wouldn't be an exp difference if two players targeted two different monsters of the same species. A Berserker can kill a Krall in 1 second and gain 6 exp. A low level Paladin can also kill a Krall in 10 seconds and gain 6 exp from it. This is because the Krall has the same scoring value and the both characters did the same total damage. What threat does is it improves your exp per damage ratio. In the previous case, if the Paladin have twice as more threat than the Berserker, then the Paladin would get 12 exp from the Krall instead of 6.

It seems you're forgetting a very crucial dimension. That dimension is time. In the previous example, the Paladin may have doubled its points due to threat, but the Paladin is still killing 10 times slower than the Berserker. In the time the Paladin killed that Krall, the Berserker could have easily killed 9 more Kralls (which means the Berserker wins in terms of exp per minute).

[SomethingToSay]

I'm wondering this: If you have 3 players who are same level, but 1 of each of the classes, and they have no adren to use any abilities, who gets the most XP? It seems to be the case that berserks do, because they have higher damage.

I'll tell you what will happen. Under the assumption that all three players have matched skill levels and they are strictly playing for points, the winner will be determined by the map and (some probability)...
Most freelance maps (like in Divine and Torlan), the Berserkers will do well since they can stay out of danger easily, keep their health up (keeping their damage up), and still damage monsters faster than any other class.
On maps with ammo shortages (like in Utopia or Nocturne), the Supports will do well most of the time due to infinite ammo, ammo packs, and monster summons (that can still damage others while the other two classes must conserve their ammo). This is under the assumption that the Berserker didn't purchase enough ammo bonus and failed to pickup any ammo pickups the map offers.
On maps with plenty of ammo and high-damaging monsters (like in Xenomorph and Use of Weapons Level 7 [with sturdy weapons]), the Paladins will excel. They'll gain lots of adren for taking damage, allowing them to use more abilities. When they use more abilities, they get more threat.

However, I talked to ant and I said "Ant, if I'm deciding to make a mocking weapon +3 but someone makes the same weapon just with +3 damage, which will do more for me in terms of XP?", since more damage under this assumption means more XP. He told me though, that the mocking would. He said the damage you do would make no difference in regards to how much XP you get, which I thought was weird, and he said it was all about threat.

I've said that there wouldn't be an exp difference if two players targeted two different monsters of the same species. A Berserker can kill a Krall in 1 second and gain 6 exp. A low level Paladin can also kill a Krall in 10 seconds and gain 6 exp from it. This is because the Krall has the same scoring value and the both characters did the same total damage. What threat does is it improves your exp per damage ratio. In the previous case, if the Paladin have twice as more threat than the Berserker, then the Paladin would get 12 exp from the Krall instead of 6.

It seems you're forgetting a very crucial dimension. That dimension is time. In the previous example, the Paladin may have doubled its points due to threat, but the Paladin is still killing 10 times slower than the Berserker. In the time the Paladin killed that Krall, the Berserker could have easily killed 9 more Kralls (which means the Berserker wins in terms of exp per minute).

Right, but since time IS a factor, berserkers ARE getting more points per second then, which was my question.

I'm somewhat starting to understand it. So berserkers end up with more points based on the sheer speed and quickness of tearing through enemies. With no threat, regardless of damage, all enemies give the same XP, it's just that a berserk will tear through 20 of them while I can only tear through 5...

Which means that if I'm using an AMRIL +3 then I'm not actually gaining more XP, I'm just being able to get through more monsters, closing the gap with a berserk that doesnt have an Amril +3, but not actually gaining more PER monster. Whereas if I use a Mocking Amril +3, it would also close the gap, but perhaps not as much since the Amril +3 does more damage and you can kill more monsters and keep on track with the berserk's pace.

ie. I use amril +3, I kill 10 monsters worth 1 XP in 1 minute

vs

I use mocking +3, I kill 10 monsters worth 2 XP in 2 minutes, etc.

You'd just have to know the rates to know if it's worth getting an Amril +3 to keep up with berserks that tear through everything fast, or making each monster you kill worth more with the Mocking. Would killing 5 monsters with mocking get me more overall than 10 with +3?


:P Alright, kinda getting it now thanks.



I should rephrase my first example.

Assuming you had 3 level 200 players(same level), 1 paladin, 1 berserk, 1 support, and all had 999 health(health not being any type of problem) and were unable to gain any adrenaline the whole map, who would gain the most points(same weapons)?

The answer ends up being berserk since they can kill more and thus take a larger portion of the static # of points set available for this map with no threat. Which makes me happy that the whining about dying fast some berserk players have done is ignored, since they have an innate ability to rack up more points by killing more monsters.


Which also explains sal's rushing a bit, since at least on his berserk, he benefits from zooming ahead of everyone and killing as much as he can -_-

[DW_WailofSuicide]

Meaning the whole team gets the XP for the objectives I assume, otherwise youll just have people rush to the objectives to get the XP from them.

Nebri would be the highest scoreholder LOL

Yeah. Like I said, I think that when you complete objectives to progress through the map, you gain experience and it's assumed that the team benefited from your presence & contribution. Although I do think people who actually complete objectives or kill monsters can and should get a some for doing so, but that this shouldn't overwhelm the overall reward for the team progressing the map.

This sort of system can be abused by idlers (unfortunately) but I do tend to think it's a little more fair than XP for damage (IMO). Although threat does a reasonable job of evening things out sometimes it's still not my preferred solution.

[vinc3h]

Well, i don't. Being a high rank berserk fighting all those easier monsters, i could see how this is possible. Seems a little rediculous and greedy but id probably do it to so i could level up quickly.

[SomethingToSay]

Meaning the whole team gets the XP for the objectives I assume, otherwise youll just have people rush to the objectives to get the XP from them.

Nebri would be the highest scoreholder LOL

Yeah. Like I said, I think that when you complete objectives to progress through the map, you gain experience and it's assumed that the team benefited from your presence & contribution. Although I do think people who actually complete objectives or kill monsters can and should get a some for doing so, but that this shouldn't overwhelm the overall reward for the team progressing the map.

This sort of system can be abused by idlers (unfortunately) but I do tend to think it's a little more fair than XP for damage (IMO). Although threat does a reasonable job of evening things out sometimes it's still not my preferred solution.

Yeah, maybe like on each objective if you earned at least 1 point in the part leading up to that objective, you get the points along with everyone else, and if you didnt earn any points then no.

I personally think that if you have a player that's idle so much of the match that it's a problem, people need to just kick them, but they get afraid they're going to be yelled at for abusing the kick feature. The kick feature is partly in place for that very reason though, imo, since their idling is just a detriment for the team(obviously if people say "ill brb gotta pee" or something then people wont kick, it makes it more based on a human judgment call)

[DW_Ant]

We do have a few maps (Xeno Part 1 and Argento) that are heavy on objective experience. Mappers can choose to use the experience triggers over exp from monsters.

We can't have all maps depend on objective experience because of the weapon masteries.

[warhead2]

Assuming you had 3 level 200 players(same level), 1 paladin, 1 berserk, 1 support, and all had 999 health(health not being any type of problem) and were unable to gain any adrenaline the whole map, who would gain the most points(same weapons)?

The answer ends up being berserk since they can kill more and thus take a larger portion of the static # of points set available for this map with no threat. Which makes me happy that the whining about dying fast some berserk players have done is ignored, since they have an innate ability to rack up more points by killing more monsters.


Which also explains sal's rushing a bit, since at least on his berserk, he benefits from zooming ahead of everyone and killing as much as he can -_-

Seeing as how there are very few R4 berserkers, maybe some comments from another R4 could help a little. It is not true that the berserkers will always get more kills or xp during a set time frame, all things being equal. As R4 berskers I have seen this. It varies by map and situation.
For example, in the bathtub in nanoclean burek with his titan and R4 support will get more kills (and if our levels were equal, more xp too) because in that tight space the titan will excel. It just depends on the situation.

Resident is example where the berserker does exceedingly well. Unfortinately for us we do not excel in all situations and in some rather badly (I would love to do as well as Crunch in nocturne final area but alas i can not and always glad when he is there to help). Reason we do well on that map is the lack of level restriction and fact that there are scads of weak monsters to help us keep our health maxed, and most of the big monsters just stand there and let us kill them in a wide open space and we rack up big xp due to trigger happy and weapon masteries. I understand your point i really do and think it is valid, but a high level bersker can't help but rack up big xp in that particular map no matter what they do. In other maps, I feel quite tied down however and can't perform so well and really depend on other classes to help me.

It's a well know saying "the berserker racks up points fast and dies fast", so as has been said yes sometimes he just has to run and kill and get his points before he dies.

However that's not always the case and he can just go wild and in such times, a berserker just needs to excercise kindness to his teammates and let them get some monsters too. i should know people always say in both server i am the point stealer so it makes me double think to be more courteous. I think this courtesy will always be a factor in online games and we just gotta be courteous and i would doubt any game redesign would eliminate that though it might help to a degree.

[SomethingToSay]

Well Sal wanted me to post it so



There we are, playing Opp Knocks, with Thwart, Bleys, Mooke myself and Sal. Sal decides he's going to use his rank 4 Berserk.

So Sal uses his rank 4 berserk and rushes ahead, killing everything. He gets 3 times the amount of kills as the rest of the team combined, and nobody else gets even 200 points by the time we got to the back C4 w/e part of the map.

So not only did we die having to rush to try and keep up with him so we'd get SOME points, but when we DID die, we had no points for monsters. I even continued to make monsters as often as possible, getting the monster token bonus, and yet by the time he finally switched to his Paladin, the strongest monsters I could muster were being killed literally within 3 seconds of encountering sal.


Utterly ridiculous. Oh, and by the way, he got 0 points for all that. So he stole everyone else's kills and rushed, getting 0 points for himself and very very little for everyone else, killing us in the process, and since there are no huggers on that map and his damage was so high, being a PM and attacking him just wasn't an option.

Thanks Sal, thank you so much. No wonder the new players hate playing...