Maps to bring back.

[DW_KarmaKat]

I would like to see the snow one come back. Dunno what the hell its name is, but I think the core areas had frozen waterfalls near them and fenced in farms. stuff like that.

I think that's ONS-Coldsteel.

KKat

[Urtho]

Airmars (regular, and old node steup)

Have to disagree. With stock vehicles, there are only 2 types that are available. That is not enough variety.

And conversely, all the vehicles you add to your maps are too much variety in gameplay effects that all end up looking the same visually. I liked what you did with the Scorpions as the base version was indeed useless. You didn't stop there, however and now you've gone into overkill territory with all the variations you're using. There was nothing massively wrong with the rest of the base vehicles to the point that 27 different versions of each standard model was needed.

I think I can pretty much guess how you'll receive this post so let just me say that I respect the effort you put into getting all of your additions to work as well as they do. Having said that, I'll also say that it's a trend I wouldn't mind at all to see cut back on or removed altogether. There's no need for an edited version of every map out there with your altered vehicles as replacements.

As for the maps in question for this thread, original Airmars is fine in small doses but it could use some real game play alterations. For starters, the middle nodes need to be far more accessable and open to attack so they cannot be defended as easily as they currently are. Two tiny entrances that are easily defended by a handful of people makes for camper heaven. Open up the walls on either side so that air vehicles can attack from multiple angles and not be shock bait the second they appear in view of the defenders. I would also suggest pulling back all 4 primary nodes to be closer to their respective cores in order to favor the defense rather than the attackers.

Shipdock is a bad map in terms of gameplay even if they theme isn't all that bad (much like the various Dremus versions - good theme but bad spammy gameplay). Would need lots of tweaks and alterations but for starters the whole core base (vehicle spawns, weapon lockers, access points) would have to be redone. As it is right now, it's just about a textbook example of how to do a core base as bad as possible. Core down at the bottome of a slope, narrow access routes that are easily spammed, poor weapon lockers, very poor core base vehicle spawns - the list goes on. The nodes are also very random - some are ok but others are terribly open or have poor spawns or placements or lockers. A few need Link guns, others up high have no hitscan weapons, and so on. Link setup would need work but that would depend on any other node alterations so that would have to be left up to the end. There's more I could add but there's no real point unless a serious editing effort was begun on this map.

And ONS-Coldsteel is indeed the map that Namu is thinking of. Pretty good map but could use some minor tweaks. Still it's one of the better "as is" maps that I've seen put out by the mapping community. I would like to see it return as well.

[DW_Hornet]

Ok from now on, urtho is everyones beta tester.

[Gorzakk]

Airmars (regular, and old node steup)

Have to disagree. With stock vehicles, there are only 2 types that are available. That is not enough variety.

And conversely, all the vehicles you add to your maps are too much variety in gameplay effects that all end up looking the same visually.

Has nothing to do with my vehicles. :love5: Airmars is based soley on raptors. To people who dont like raptors, that makes it completely boring. Yes it got voted in a lot, but lets face facts folks, there was nothing for provoking a load of bitching like the original airmars. ("I hate this map, crap map, vote something else, etc etc").

With regard to my vehicles, I think you misunderstand. I am not trying to "fix" stuff. This is a 2 year old game and is getting very old for many people. I work hard to inject some freshness into it and hopefully some people enjoy what I do. If you say the rest of the vehicles dont "need" fixing then I would say that UT doesnt "need" new maps at all. New maps are made to give people something new to play with. My approach to mapping is different than most in that rather than change environments, I provide new methods to fight in those environments. You may not like it but some people drool over my creations and look forward to the new toys I add to what is an old and tired game. All of my maps are tagged with "Gorz" so people know what they are voting for in advance.

Also bear in mind every single person will have different opinions on maps. If we removed every map that someone didnt like we would be around a campfire singing songs.

[DW_Hornet]

Many players on our server havent been playing for years, most only months. Your lumping the whole community and claiming everyone is sick and tired of the original vehicles. Which isnt nearly the case. Of course we like variety, hell imagine being locked in to playing torlan/primevil like the demo peeps. However there is the other end of the spectrum like the SCK server that keeps things basic and that server is frequently full.

Some of the vehicle modifications just went overboard. We have what now 5 diffrent type of raptors? 3 mantas? 6-7 diffrent scorpians? 4 tanks? 3 paladins? 3 benders?. Im not knocking your ideas, my issue is the implementations. For example, Wyverns are too fast to track shoot down, unless you have a decent shock and they slamed into 20 walls. They have such a range of abilites from troop transport to offensive use thats its overpowering in any map you create.

Then you have maps that were built around the vehicle like scorpian canyon who doesnt have the -gorz (did you make this one) suffix and is a great map. Or lets use the ABC map as another example. The flying book has a very tight turning radius when moving, Combined with the terrian it makes it work.

Basically maps should be modified for vehicles, not the vehicles for the map.

[Gorzakk]

Look. I had this at titan for months. Its not going to happen here. This is going to be my one and only post on the "Ethics" of custom vehicle creation here.

If other people like what I do you should respect their wishes and not tell me how to map please. If the consensus of opinion is that something I've done is not up to standard - remove it. But dont remove based upon some arbitrary "Unreal law" based upon "vehicles must be this...[fill in Epic commandments here]".

Many players on our server havent been playing for years, most only months. Your lumping the whole community and claiming everyone is sick and tired of the original vehicles. Which isnt nearly the case.

No I did not. I said nothing of the sort. I said that this is an old game. This is a tired game. This is a game that needs a constant flow of fresh material to survive and even with this fresh material its dying out. Slaughters recently shut. Titan always has a few slots available, other servers are shutting and shrinking. Why is the UT community screaming for UT2007? Its because everyone knows UT2004 is in its twilight. My method of providing fresh material is to mess around with vehicle physics and weapons systems.

Basically maps should be modified for vehicles, not the vehicles for the map.

That is your opinion, not a statement of fact. It is entirely up to the mapper what he or she wants to do. If you dont like it you have the option to make maps yourself. If a mapper wants to utilise Ued to make changes to vehicles on a map-per-map basis, then that is entirely the mappers decision. I prefer to do this because in my view, a manta is a manta and a tank is a tank. It doesnt matter what you do to the environment you drive across it will be the same old same old. Without something new, the game gets tedious for me. How many times must you get killed in a tank before you realise "hey, this tank could do with an anti air weapon!". How many times must you get killed driving a hellbender before you think "I wish the driver had some sort of weapon".

For me the game should be dynamic and fresh. Not "I see this vehicle so its best to use this weapon....". Thats not fun, thats homework.

If you dont like that method, then that is fair enough. You may either offer individual critique on each vehicle, you may disconnect when such a map comes up, you may not vote for it. But dont be an elitist and state that do such a thing is wrong. And I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it doesnt work, hell, I dont think a lot of maps work full stop. I'm very grateful they have been tested here to find out what does work and what doesnt, and I've had a LOT of praise as well as criticism for my material.

I regard to the wyverns, well you may not like them. But clearly there are people who would disagree with you.

http://slaughtersplace.com/forums/forum ... wPost.aspx

[Benfica]

Gorzakk I posted on Titan's about the vehicles when you were there. Over and over again defending them. You know how I like custom stuff, I used to play with ChaosUT2, Halo for UT, Monarch's vehicles, etc...
But even offline, I only played with vehicles on the right amount and very different from standard. Like these:
Airpower Annihilation Arsenal Clone bandits: Halo: But even then, balanced for offline play and making sense on the particular map, either visuals or gameplay. Ex: the clone bandits would be okay for Cataldi-Park or even ABC. I remember I played Primeval with Halo vehicles only, etc...
But then I'm only one player and offline. Here on the server a lot of people like, a lot don't. And dropped in bulk like you did with Adara-Gorz will kill either the server or your work. Just remove some maps and stick with the best only, like for instance MinusTankMeUp, ScorpionCanyon, Maelseverance, Airmars-Gorz.

[Gorzakk]

You dont know what the best is until its had a try out do you? You just run it, see if it works, if it doesnt - drop it or attempt to develop it. If it does - keep it.

Simple. :colors:

The question is - how do you determine if something works or not? I'd say, are most people playing having fun?

Equally simple. :cheers:

This thread is not about that anyway. I'm determined not to get drawn into that argument again.

[DW_ToxicWaste]

OK, hold on here. There's a right way to do things and a wrong way. This is not the right way.

We never officially rolled out the Gorz maps, with discussion threads about what works and what doesn't. That's what we should have done. Arguing like this gets us no where.

I'm in complete agreement with all of you. This game definitely needs a kick in the ass. But the kick needs to be of just the right strength to get it moving again, not to launch it over the fence.

I truly appreciate Gorz's efforts. I like some of his vehicles, and some I don't like. I like some of his maps, and dislike others. I'm sure people are of the same mind.

I'm in complete agreement with Hornet on the Wyverrn. WAY to powerful. As he stated, you're only hope is the guy is driving drunk and will plow into a tree. Might it have a place on a map somewhere? Perhaps. But I think that place would have to be well thought out.

Unfortunately, I do not get the playing time I used to, so I can not give tremendous feedback on the maps. I know two pretty well right now, and that's Adara and Minus.

I think Minus is absolutely brilliant. I think the variety of vehicles is superb, and I think the balance is there save for one thing. The minotour. This thing is just too powerful. If you have less than 32 players, it can run roughshod over the map. I got on with 20p one day. I got in the mini, got 21 kills, never died, and we won the map in a couple of mins. To me, that smells like an unbalanced vehicle.

Adara on the other hand is completely ruined for me. I think right now it is simply pure chaos with no vehicle balance whatsoever and no strategy. But as Gorz states, that's why we really need to beta these things, and properly discuss them. And it's my fault for that not happening. So we need to set up some threads where we can discuss the Gorz maps, and where his vehicles might be best put to work. IMHO, I think in general it's best to introduce one or two custom vehicles to an existing map, and not overwhelm the map with a conglomeration of every new vehicle known to man. Is it true in all cases? No. Minus is a perfect example. I think it works well with all those new vehicles (minus the mini). Adara IMHO is a perfect example where less is more. Sometimes I think a map is better with less vehicles. I liked the original Adara and I think we'll be going back to that one.

So let's try to be constructive here. This community needs people like Gorz and his ideas and his wilingness to shake things up. But Gorz also needs constructive feedback to understand what the people are thinking and how he can tweak his work to be more to people's liking.

Rich (TW)

[HunkaHunkaBurninLove]

MinusTankMeUp is extremely popular. The instant it hits the menu it gets nearly unanimous vote. It gets played -- sometimes quickly -- and then it's gone for another eon or so.

Isn't there some way to make it come around more often? A really dumb solution is to put multiples copies out there (labelled A,B,C for example). But surely there's a configuration solution.

I guess I'm not a the-pleasure-is-in-the-anticipation person.