OK, I'm an idiot

[kaeolian]

Sounds well planned out toxic, looking at it from another angle for a minute, some people includng my self find some of the larger maps *cough* volcanohigh *cough* so drawn out and boring that more time or rounds would drive me insain....

I think thats the reason that so many smaller faster maps get chosen. From what I have seen when playing large slower maps you find it starts with say 25 players round finishes in OT game took a long time with no real team making any headway 5 leave out of frustration / bordum. Round two 20 Players. Once again back into OT during the round 3 more left because of the monotany. End of round 17 people left 3 more leave because they dont want another round. Round three starts 14 left and if they see it till the end you usualy find a lot leave after the lvl because they have had enough of playing or it has taken up all there free time playing one lvl.

Thats just the pattern that I seem to have noticed. Hope this helps

SVA>kae

[DW_ToxicWaste]

Kae, I understand completely. The part you left out in your scenario though is that while this map is going on into more rounds, you are getting new blood all the time because people are sorting the server browser by number of players, and joining poulated servers. So yeah, you may lose 5 after that first round, but I guarantee you'll get more while it's going on when people see 20 people on the server. But if that map ends with 20, and you have a two minue map the next time, you're going to lose another 5 and not gain anyone. A couple of those in a row and you have an empty server.

And of those 5 that left, you might get them to come back in a bit. If they look at the server 10 minutes later and see a new map with 20 people, or a new map with 8, under which scenario do you think they are more likely to come back?

And yeah, maybe you need a quick map for some satisfaction (and there will still be quick ones) but in the mean time, you went from 32 players down to 8 and you're playing against bots. What makes you more happy? Playing those 3 quick maps, and now playing against bots? Or maybe playing a map or two that ran longer than you prefer, but now you have still 20+ people to play a good map. It's all give and take.

To your point on Volcano, maybe that one needs to be one point, and then there isn't that deire to have something short just to get that bad taste out of your mouth. But that's one of the reasons I ask you guys. There are maps I like and don't like. I like volcano, and don't mind it going three rounds, but it sounds like there are people that don't. In which case, I don't have a problem going to 1. And that's not something people are thinking about. I'm not only looking to extend short maps, I'm also looking to shorten maps which are guaranteed to run long, but maybe are not people's favorite maps (like the dreamuses and minus). There's nothing wrong with 15 minutes of Volcano, but apprantly there's a problem with 45 minutes of volcano. Let's change that.

There are also varying reasons why a map ends in two minutes. Sometimes it's not the map's fault, but maybe one team got a bunch of slow loading players. Maybe a bot grabbed the manta and went for a joy ride. Wouldn't another round equalize things and make for a much better game that second round? Everyone has the map, everyone will be in the game, someone will run straight for the Manta :cyclopsani:

My goal is not to make every map 45 minute slugfests. My goal is to reduce, not eliminate, the number of maps that are over in 2 minutes so that we don't have that 3 map in 6 minute server emptying event.

There are also maps that I could bring back if I can make them one point. I know alot of people like Dark Side of the Moon, and the House. But they are fairly intolerable at 2 points, because You're guaranteeing 50 minutes of stalemate. But If I only make it 1 point, it's only 15 minutes.

IMO, the necessary ingredient to having fun here (or anywhere) is having players to play against, no matter the map or the goal score. So if extending a couple of maps longer than they have gone in the past acheives that, is that not what we need to do? It's not going to be perfect, and it will probably take some tweaking, but with feedback from you guys, I think we can come to a nice balance.

I apologize for the long winded posts, but I've really been wracking my brains for quite a few weeks to understand the reduced player counts and how to change it. There's obvoisly more competition, but from a server standpoint, I don't think we're doing a good enough job of keeping players around. Other servers have their point scoring set to 3, and on some maps, that can mean 1.5 hours which is just insane. But you know what? They stay full during that time because you have fewer frunstrated players then you have players that are not playing that want to get in. Those numbers more than compensate for the droppers. With the varying goalscores and time limits, I think we can find a balance between insanely long matches, and short matches which drive people away.

Rich (TW)

[Zax_Gentoo_Box]

There are also varying reasons why a map ends in two minutes. Sometimes it's not the map's fault, but maybe one team got a bunch of slow loading players. Maybe a bot grabbed the manta and went for a joy ride. Wouldn't another round equalize things and make for a much better game that second round? Everyone has the map, everyone will be in the game, someone will run straight for the Manta

And sometimes you have 5 DWs on one team and a bunch of noobs on the other. That makes for a fast game. Anyway, I'm with Kae on Volcano. Ech, can't stand that map. I'll play it, but that's one of those maps that if you don't have alot of players you shouldn't play. Well, I see alot of people playing on the SCK server, and my dad's always in line to get into it, so what's the secret behind their success?

[DW_Hornet]

They only play maps you can play at TWL, which makes the pro community want to play there. As with tam and every other gametype, people who play competitively dont like to be bothered with random customs. Its nice to play there since people know the ins and outs of the game, but youll be stuck on the same 6 maps for eternity.

Since they added ahebban to the map rotation the server has been hopping again, it got full before but no where near how often compared to now.

[DW_damn_weasel]

Going straight to the point
Map/Score/Time
Spambox/5/Does it matter?
Melseverance/3/12 Min
Spifingrad/3/12 Min
Deathdome/3/12 Min
Minus/3/12 Min

Just to name a few.
I think that part of the secret is, add more points and less time per round. Look for maps where you can kill the bastard right away (you know…lots of action), I know some of us don’t like that much “spam festival” maps, but that’s what ppl like…so it’s time to go “pop”. And please please add Doomofdeath or something, I love that map, oh and with 3 points.
Huge maps are boring, never go to OT and they are boring. There are only a few huge maps that ppl like. We all know that ppl like maps with lots of action; good examples are Dreamus, DeathDome, Bitchslap, Chain, Dinora, Tropic etc etc… usually small maps. :blackeye:

[joeblow]

Grit nights is a stalemate every time as well. Might want to look at that as well.


wp

[Urtho]

But Urtho can't laugh at me too much, because he never told me this

Perhaps not, but I never mentioned it as it is a fairly useless feature in my view.

You make the maps serve your game settings, not the other way around as you're trying to do here. Pick a setting and go with it and choose the maps you run based off of what maps work with what you've chosen. All you're going to do is needlessly confuse the already mostly oblivious public server UT players with constant switching up of the game score/settings. I keep saying this but no one is listening... maybe I'll try one more time.

Run good maps (good ONS maps, not "good" maps that are popular with a certain segment of players), run good links, make the games reasonably timed and you'll have a good crowd on most nights. You seriously need to cut back on the lame spam maps you've got going here. Yes, I know the server's name but you need to make a choice on the direction you're going to take the server given the problems you're starting to see now as all you do when you run some of these crap maps is alienate the skilled players who might give your server a try or the casual player who wants a good competitive game that night.

What I have seen too many times in the last few weeks is getting three "fast" maps in a row, where we lose people in the end, but don't play the map long enough to attract more people. What happens? Empty server in 3 maps.

Fast maps are bad maps and you run far too many of them. One obvious example is TankMeUp which, for all the masturbatory gushing some give it both in game and here, is almost always over quite quickly - it's a B A D M A P (emphasis added for the slow readers). I don't know why you keep some of these available... personal likes perhaps but they are one of the main reasons you're seeing this problem. You're giving your players a chance to choose from lots of bad maps and you can see the inevitable result when they keep getting voted in map after map after map and players who get tired of the same bad game play start dropping off the server. Reference my previous post - most players are idiots and you are seeing the proof of it.

And somewhat related to this is the following - STOP USING CHOKE NODE LINKS. They don't work with this many people and they never will no matter what map you try them on or leave as the default setup. All that does is give you 32 players all converging on a single point on the map to fight it out with the losers fruitlessly trying to build a node that the winners can easily tear down with the advantage of multiple attack angles and all the best vehicles from the other nodes on the map. Not only does this make for an extremely boring endgame (which will also cause players to drop off the server quite rapidly btw) but there is virtually no chance for a comeback by the losing side barring the winners all being replaced by core healers. A game that when a single node falls you immediately know the final outcome is not a competitive game - now one side is just bait for the other side to spawn and base rape which a certain segment of your player base clearly loves and is unwilling to see taken away.

I know you're a busy man (aren't we all these days), but you really need to sit down and review all the maps you chose to keep after removing the totally unsalvagable ones and either come up with non-choke custom links or have one of your admins or DW people who knows how to make something workable do it for you. Maps like the oh so precious to some Dremus 1 & 2 are prime offenders for this monotonous style of gameplay but there are many others that are so flawed in basic construction, layout, and loadout that simply altering the links won't fix the problem..

I've already told you what I think needs to be done in two rather long messages. If you chose to go another way well... that is your choice of course but I think you're making a mistake. Letting the players who come here to play DM with vehicles rather than play an actual game of ONS choose the server's direction is not who I would be listening to for good mapping or server setting advice but you'll have to pick your own path I suppose. From what you said here:

Other servers have their point scoring set to 3, and on some maps, that can mean 1.5 hours which is just insane. But you know what? They stay full during that time because you have fewer frunstrated players then you have players that are not playing that want to get in. Those numbers more than compensate for the droppers.

I can guess which way you'll fall on this issue and I'm frankly not encouraged at all. Long times on a map are indicative of a well balanced map and even teams both with numbers and skillwise. Thinking that such a state of affairs is a bad thing doesn't bode well for this server but that's the way it goes with the short attention spans among players these days I suppose.

This specific part of the quote, btw -

But you know what? They stay full during that time

is probably something you should also be thinking about quite seriously.

Anyways, I've said my piece, flame away if so inclined.

[KarnEvil9]

O.K. we seem to be seeking opinions.......and first and foremost please consider the only impossibility is to please everyone, and Toxic does a damn fine job trying to do just that! Never give up!
I really have no complaints with this thread or posters, and as I am new to the game much of what is discussed I must have more time playing to form a valid stance, but as to this group of people, the admin and the server, hell the maps as far as that goes, I have several questions to ask, first, what's the problem?!
I know we would all love to see Toxics servers full all the time, but as Toxic has said many times, this is an older game. At least here things do change and we are given the chance to try out other mods and maps on a real server with other players. Toxic has added more games, mods and maps, and most of the time whether he likes a suggestion or not he'll give it a shot and see how folks like it. As we all know he's running maps now that he dosen't like, but because other folks like them they run. I don't really think that kind of response is found many other places. From what I have seen going back and looking at some of the servers I tried in the past, they are just as cold and static as they were before. Should it be just another static, nothing new, server like the rest?
When I first started playing online, I went to many different servers playing several different games and never got so much as a hello from anyone (O.K. so I sux at UT...now we move on) until I came to this server. I am sad to say I really can't remember who it was but they welcomed me, we played, and I almost instantly felt like I was part of the group. I played on several other servers and ended up looking for a while to find the fun server where I had a teammate. When I did find it again someone else was there fighting for a node welcoming me to join!
When I joined the forums, I got pms welcoming me to the community, and even though I am not even close to being a real player I am always made to feel as if others enjoy playing me. Hell the big guns even let me shoot em every once and a while!
If it is just the game, settings, and maps, why are we playing each other online, when it's a whole lot eaiser to setup your own little world to play in. I really do love the game and this is THE place for me and a lot of others to play. I know it can always be better, but until we all win the lottery and become kings and queens of our own countries,...I think this does just fine for me!
I have already gone too far and wasted too much time (yours and mine) to say what boils down to something very simple, and yet hard to create, and that is a community, which really is the driving force that keeeps UT running on so many machines for so long after the game's release. Here there is a IMO wonderful community with nice real people. I think thats enough for me.
And I wasn't irked before but now I've missed more server time writing this so later!

[DW_Hornet]

Urtho i agree wtih your post almost entirely. Even though im a decent shot, the linear node setups are ridiculous. ONS is supposed to be a more team oriented gametype. Unfortunitly with 32 players its very difficult to manage to find node setups to keep them all occupied and in diffrent areas. Now thats something minus tankmeup got correct. There are several battles to fight at any one time, a plethora of vehicle, good framerates, ect. Although i hate this map like you do a vast majority like it. I think gorz improved the gameplay alot on this map with the addition of the minitaur, the other vehicles just dont add that much other then wasted variety.

At the end of the day toxic will probally run maps that will keep the server buzzing with 'pro' or 'noob' players. I think toxic runs this like a non for profit buisness, trying to please/help as many as he can with as little resources.

[DW_ToxicWaste]

Urtho,

I always value your input. You are an intelligent guy. You definitely have a grasp on ways to improve maps, and good node layouts. Although in general I agree with most of what you say, this is a rare post in that I disagree with most of it. You spend too much time worrying about what people SHOULD like, and not enough time worrying about what they DO like. The only difference between your post, and Sweet Tooth's rant about Dreamus is that you use more syllables in your words. You have no more right to tell people what they SHOULD like than he.

So there are "bad" maps on the server. You speak of "bad" as if it is a fact. Bad is a matter of opinion, not fact. Some people subscribe to "No choke points" and hold on to that blindly as if it were a rope holding them over a tank of hungry sharks. Why not? Why can't we play some choke point maps? Why does every map need to be startched, pressed, beta tested for 6 months, have two paths to the core and 3 cutoffs and BE EXACTLY THE SAME? If I wanted to play a chess match every map, I would play...CHESS!

We have 80 odd maps. Some maps are chess matches, some are blood baths. Some have eye candy, some have special vehicles. Some have a certain charm that I don't even understand myself. Why can't we have
these? Why does every meal need to be Chicken with Steamed Broccolli? Can't we have hot fudge sundaes and pasta and hamburgers too? Even though I know that stuff isn't good for me, I still like to indulge
once in a while!

As an admin I work with the realization that people do not like what I feel they should like. People like what they like, and it's up to me to give that to them. If not, I am talking to the bots on my empty server asking them why no one is playing here when I have all these great maps that I think people SHOULD be playing. You seem to be almost offended when people have fun on a map you think they should hate. I don't understand that attitude at all. It's not important for me to be upset over why they like a "bad" map, it's important for me to recognize they like it and give them more of it.

And if I wanted only "elite" players, I would start a vanilla server with 8v8 and run Dria, Torlan, Arctic, etc. That's not brain surgery. But you know what? That's not what I want. I want friendly people looking to come here and relax and have a good time. I don't want abusive cellar dwellers who play UT 8 hours a day and call me n00b for using spider mines, and yelling at me to leave the tank for them because I don't know how to use it properly.

The reason I started this thread, is because no matter what map is playing, no matter the skill level, no matter the strategic value of the map, there's one common denominator to people having fun playing online, and that's having other people to play with. My concern, first, foremost and completely is to offer a way for people to have the most fun. So therefore, lower player counts scare me and I'm trying to drum up ideas to change that. Now thankfully, we're up in the last week or so (without me doing the goal score thing yet, maybe because the summer is REALLY coming to an end now) so I'm happy about that, but I'm always looking to improve the server. If forcing Bitchslap and volcano to one round helps keep people around, I'll do it. If increasing a short map to two or more rounds keeps people around, I'll do it. If removing a "bad" map will do it, I WILL do that too. And if you doubt that, I can give you a list of about 100 maps that have run here at one time or another but have been removed since.

Urtho, you really do have a lot of good ideas and I have always valued your input. But you have to realize people do things they like, they don't do things people tell them the should like. And I put threads up here like this to get their feedback because I'm always looking for way to provide them more fun and more good times, based upon what THEY want, not tell them how to have a good time.

The only point I do agree with you on is that yes, there are some questionable maps running here, and a lot of them could be fixed to work better. And once I figure out a way to clone myself, and Wraith, we
will get right to work on them. But of course, your definition of questionable, and mine is different. So why dont we just start some threads in the maps forum and discuss ways to make maps better, rather than just tearing down what we don't like and calling it crap?

Rich (TW)