OK, I'm an idiot

[DW_e_aLpHa]

- So all this means ...

The Spam Vikings Server is not a dedicated TWL server for the 'pro' ONS gamer ... Is a place to come and frag , laugh , have fun and enjoy the minutes or the hours who everybody coming spends there .. Anyone who had played a TWL ons match knows what I talk about , and that is indeed a brain breaking chess game ..call it ' The Way ONS is supposed to be played' - and thats undeniable- \\ This is not the case of Spam Vikings .. people gets atracted by people , and the people that is there is there because is having fun , and if its having fun is because they like what SV has to offer .. The Toxic's goal is pretty simple and clear ..

People needs to be flexible .. IF you are a pro Ons Player you have to realize your joining a comunity that has all kinds of levels of players.. You as 'pro' should be able try to help give a little advice to your teamates on those maps that you know require of some of that 'chess game' and at the same time share the fun of a fraggin spamm fest map where everyone is 'having crazy fun' - // If you are a pron Ons Player and join this comunity and start telling everybody what to do in such a 'your a noob and you must do what i say' way ..well in our eyes and Opinion thats not an ONS pro player thats just an unwelcome asshat --
Spam Vikings is a Comunity of Flexible, Nice Unreal Tournament Gamers who do whatever it takes to have FUN!! out of the game they like . :albino:

[DW_Cheapshot]

Thank You Alpha, I could not have said it any better than you
just did. I dont need to add a thing. :edfirst: :spam1: :spam2: :spam1:

[Purity_the_Kitty]

I agree...this server is a friendly, fun, casual place, not "pro". I think Alpha's about as "pro" as any of us get around here and that's the way I like it. :)

[Urtho]

Urtho,

The only difference between your post, and Sweet Tooth's rant about Dreamus is that you use more syllables in your words. You have no more right to tell people what they SHOULD like than he.

I'm not telling people what they should like, I'm telling YOU the kinds of maps you should be running if you want to fix your server bleeding problem. And comparing me to ST? I find it incredibly offensive to be looped into the same realm as that asshole so thanks for that. I'm trying to help you fix the problem that you posted about, not change this into some type of a pro server. Anyone who has known my since back around the original UT should know that that type of online gaming isn't something I'm going to promote. That is obviously not going to happen here in any case given the prevailing attitudes and current player base. Oh and sorry about the use of proper english in my posts, I'm afraid I was born too early to be hip with all the l33t speak lingo.

So there are "bad" maps on the server. You speak of "bad" as if it is a fact. Bad is a matter of opinion, not fact.

No.

This specific point is not open to debate for me, not when you're dealing with 32 player ONS servers. You can tear into me on this point if you care to all you like but I'm not willing to concede that what makes a map a bad one for this level of gameplay is a totallly open and subjective question. Not when it comes to playing an actual game of Onslaught anyways. There are maps that people play ONS on and there are the ones where they do not. Wether it is spawn raping, mindless sniping the helps only their point total, ignoring the nodes to play DM with vehicles, or something else altogether - the particulars vary but it all results in games that are ONS ones in name only.

If you can't see that most people do not play ONS on maps such as Dremus than there's not much I can do to help you and I'm sorry for wasting your time and mine by posting here.

As an admin I work with the realization that people do not like what I feel they should like. People like what they like, and it's up to me to give that to them.

This is where your mistake is and the point of my posts that you're clearly not seeing at all. People already ARE telling you what they want by voting with their feet - leaving the bad maps and staying around for the ones that last longer both here and on other servers as you've noted. The vocal minority will always make itself heard but play stats and what maps draw and keep people over the long haul is what you need to be listening too rather than those loud voices.

This wouldn't even be an issue if you hadn't brought up your concerns about diminishing player counts. I've felt as I do here and in my other posts for a long time now but I always kept my peace (for the most part) as I figured that it was working for you and people were getting what they wanted. I had some good games, quite a few stupid ones, but hey the masses voted and that's the way it goes. Your post clearly showed that something had changed that needed fixing and so I tried to suggest to you ways to solve your problem.

You seem to be almost offended when people have fun on a map you think they should hate. I don't understand that attitude at all.

Funny that. If you had read some of the things I've written about other games in my distant past you'd probably get that same impression as well. I thought I had long since resigned myself to the fact that a certain percentage of people have fun in moronic ways but perhaps it still bleeds thru on occasion. It's been called arogance, elitism and many other things in the past and maybe it's true. I'll try to keep it muted for you, 'k?

So therefore, lower player counts scare me and I'm trying to drum up ideas to change that.

Well, mission accomplished and all that hmm? Shame we won't get to see if it would have worked or not.

Urtho, you really do have a lot of good ideas and I have always valued your input. But you have to realize people do things they like, they don't do things people tell them the should like. And I put threads up here like this to get their feedback because I'm always looking for way to provide them more fun and more good times, based upon what THEY want, not tell them how to have a good time.

You know Toxic I like you and all that good stuff, but that whole paragraph came off as incredibly condecending. I don't think in any of my posts I've ever said or implied that only I can offer suggestions or send in ideas on the forums so I'm not sure what your point here is. I'm simply another face in the crowd trying to answer your querry and fix the problem you're having.

So why dont we just start some threads in the maps forum and discuss ways to make maps better, rather than just tearing down what we don't like and calling it crap?

Once one or more people come forward and say "I'm going to be fixing map A - tell me what needs to be done" I'll sure I'll do just that. SImply picking out one of the many problem maps at random and then suggesting extensive changes on the off chance that someone will pick up the torch and run with it just isn't something I'm going to do. I've wasted my time that way before so you'll forgive me if I wait for an active editor to come forward.

Anyways, it's fairly clear to me that you missed out on most of what I was trying to tell you in my last few posts and since I'm not sure how to make the point clearer at this time I'll leave it here for now as I've said what I wanted - the rest is up to you.

[DW_ToxicWaste]

I''m not telling people what they should like"

By ridiculing the maps people do like, you are in essence doing just that.


"I find it incredibly offensive to be looped into the same realm as that asshole"

I was careful not to compare you to him. I was comparing your post, which ridicules people's choice of maps, and calls them idiots and morons to his post.

And I said the only difference between the posts is that you use bigger words, for which I am not ridiculing you for using big words, so I don't know why you are bringing 1337 speak into it. If you took this as a direct comparison, I apologize, as it is farther from the truth than our differing viwepoints on this topic.


"You can tear into me on this point if you care to all you like but I''m not willing to concede that what makes a map a bad one for this level of gameplay is a totallly open and subjective question."

First of all, I am not tearing into you, I am disagreeing with you. Second of all, I'm saying the word bad itself is subjective. You can look at "bad map"

in one of two ways:

1. It is a poorly deisgned map where the rules for good ONS map making were thrown out
2. It is a poorly designed map where the rules for good ONS map making were thrown out, but for some reason people like it and have FUN on it.

From a design perspective, yes there is only one way of looking at things and for that you are right. But I am looking at it from an admin perspective and for me, rule two prevails.


"If you can''t see that most people do not play ONS on maps such as Dremus than there's not much I can do to help you and I'm sorry for wasting your time and mine by posting here."

I know that as perfectly as you do, but who cares? Why do you care? Why does it irk you that people are having fun on a less that "perfect" ONS map? I'm really having a hard time understanding that. There are many variations of Chess. If people like playing speed Chess, who cares? Why does Chess HAVE to be a three hour match thinking through each move for 20 minutes? Is there anything in life you like that is a variation on what people think is the pure definition of it?

Do you have any idea what maps some of the other "big" servers are running? Some of them are maps that *I* laugh at, and I'm sure you'll be the first to admit how amusing it is that I actually reject maps. When you have time, go browse some of them, when you see the same map up there for 60+ minutes and have a look. But the reason I reject maps is not because I think they don't here to strict ONs design rules, it's because I don't think they would be fun. And sometimes I'm right, and sometimes I'm wrong.


"Wether it is spawn raping, mindless sniping the helps only their point total, ignoring the nodes to play DM with vehicles, or something else altogether - the particulars vary but it all results in games that are ONS ones in name only."

Why does ONS have to BE SOMETHING SPECIFIC? Why can't it just be a game? Why can't I just join a server and play? Why can't we have maps which are more DM with vehicles? Who gives a damn as long as people are having fun? I posted a thread in the maps forums asking for feedback on which maps should be removed (were not fun), and I got plenty of feedback. Those maps were removed. Dreamus was never mentioned. And no one ever said "Well, this map is a lot of fun to play, but it's really not ONS in the purest sense, so it should be removed."



"This is where your mistake is and the point of my posts that you''re clearly not seeing at all. People already ARE telling you what they want by voting with their feet - leaving the bad maps and staying around for the ones that last longer both here and on other servers as you''ve noted. The vocal minority will always make itself heard but play stats and what maps draw and keep people over the long haul is what you need to be listening too rather than those loud voices."

Agreed, and I try my best to remove maps that are "bad." But since I do not subscribe to the "Bad" model that you do, I have a harder time. I have to try to figure out, not if this map adheres to strict ONS standards, but are people having fun on it. If I get to play a lot, I can get direct feedback. With my life filling up in the last two years, I have a harder time of it and ask for help sometimes in the forums. And you, have been absolutely invaluable in this regard. You have always been helpful on making map suggestions and node layout suggestions, and for that I am forever greatful because you HAVE made this server better and you don't have to do that.

The point I disagree with you on to a certain extent is that I feel leaving the server is more of a psycological thing, not a bad map thing. If you have 32 people on the server, and the map ends (good or bad map), you are going to lose say 8 people, because that is the psycology. People leave when the map is over. And lets say "Good Map A" comes up next and lasts two minutes, you are still going to lose another 8 people. Has nothing to do with the quality of the map just played, it's just just psycology. Most people are more inclined to leave after a map is over. It's almost like an alarm goes off. And because the map lasted 2 minutes you got no additional people joining. A couple of those and the server is empty. Again, doesn't matter if we played three "good" maps in a row. And don't tell me that a "good" map cannot end in two minutes because I will not hear that.

Now in the long term, I will ALWAYS grant you that better (fun, not perfect) maps will help draw people back and I do try and strive toward that goal, but player counts are what people are initially looking at. No one is going out to the internet and sorting the server list by map. "Hmm, I can go to this empty server and play with bots because this is a perfect ONS map, or I can go to Spam Vikings with 18 people on it with a map that's not to my liking, but I know/hope they have other maps which I do like.

Where are people going do you think?



"This wouldn''t even be an issue if you hadn''t brought up your concerns about diminishing player counts. I''ve felt as I do here and in my other posts for a long time now but I always kept my peace (for the most part) as I figured that it was working for you and people were getting what they wanted. I had some good games, quite a few stupid ones, but hey the masses voted and that''s the way it goes. Your post clearly showed that something had changed that needed fixing and so I tried to suggest to you ways to solve your problem."

And as I have said, I value your input HIGHLY, more higly then most. You don't have to help me, you never did, but you did and for that I am grateful. But I don't agree with your attitude in your post, and I took a little umbrage with it and how it came across.

I'm not saying Goal score and time limit per map is an exceptional idea, and I'm not saying I'm going to go and "fix" 80 maps tomorrow with goalscore and timelimits. I threw it out here for feedback. I saw a problem and I'm trying to mitigate it. There may not be a solution. It's a damn old game. There's 500% more competition than there was when we were on top. It may just be what it is, but I am trying to come up with ideas to improve the gameplay here, and that's all. I cannot cull 40
maps off the server because they don't adhere to ONs design guidlines because some of them people love (for whatever reason, sometimes I don't understand it myself.)

And as it turns out, after I thinking about it, I would rather REDUCE goalscore on some maps rather than increase. And as of yet I have not done more than two or three maps, because I am not sure it's a good idea yet and I was putting it out there for discussion, not dictation.

You write:

"people have fun in moronic ways"

"Well, mission accomplished and all that hmm? Shame we won''t get to see if it would have worked or not."

And then you write:

"You know Toxic I like you and all that good stuff, but that whole paragraph came off as incredibly condecending."

:confused5:

I think this illustration is enough to prove a point. I was very careful, I thought, not to get condecending, and if you were offended by one paragraph out of 6, I apologize. I AM trying to have a rational discussion.



"SImply picking out one of the many problem maps at random and then suggesting extensive changes on the off chance that someone will pick up the torch and run with it just isn''t something I''m going to do. I''ve wasted my time that way before so you''ll forgive me if I wait for an active editor to come forward."

And when my company is looking to hire, this is exactly what they do. They say we're not going to post any jobs, and we're going to wait for someone to come to us telling us they are willing to work.

I don't think we need 47 page detailed manuals to get things moving and determine if there's interest. How about a subject "Let's fix map A" and three bullet points on what needs to be changed to get some discussion rolling? If someone wants to roll with it, great. If not, it dies and the map is removed, or stays as is.


"Anyways, it''s fairly clear to me that you missed out on most of what I was trying to tell you in my last few posts and since I''m not sure how to make the point clearer at this time I''ll leave it here for now as I''ve said what I wanted - the rest is up to you."

No, I have listened to every word you have said, and I appreciate what I have learned from you. The server would not be as "polished" as it is today without your help. And I understand exactly what you are saying, and I agree with you about having "good" maps. The poiint we don't see eye to eye on is the perspective of good, and if "good" in the purest ONS sense really matters in the short or long run.

I'm not looking to become at odds with you, I just didn't like that post and some of the things you have said in other recent posts. People just want to have a good god damn time, and they don't care if there's two cutoffs and an extra scorpion to counter balance the manta. If they want to play tankmeup 47 times in a row who cares? Why should you?

I'll never forget the night we met. You came on to my server and called it in essence, a piece of crap and couldn't understand why people play here. After exchanging veiled insults, we became "internet friends." I value your friendship, and I think we are far better off as a team than individually. Without your help, we would still be running default node layouts and some "crap" maps.

And I am trying to help you see that the big picture for an admin is players, regardless of the quality of the maps. You can run the best, purest ONS maps on the planet, but if people don't have fun on them, they're not going to play there. And I know your argument will be that only pure ONS maps make fun, but that's not obviously always the case is it?

Rich (TW)

[DW_Hornet]

:happy1: O hell a romantic chick flick? Dam you noobs.

Maybe have it in voteing format to so 30 posts from me why airmars sucks doesnt outweigh the fact that others dont think its a turd map?

[DW_ToxicWaste]

Come over here and let me butter that popcorn for you.

[Shiner]

I think you are all messed up in the head give it up you all. The south will rise again

[DW_Hornet]

hey look its vic's biggest fan!

[DW_Bomzin]

OK that got long , may finish it latter when i do make some popcorn.

You both have validity in some aspects.

Plain and simple Dreamus sucks but people love it . Go figure . We won't even talk about air mars... :knob: