Let me summarize my play experience regarding the classes and the new monsters.
WM = only advantage is Vampirism. Note that "Advanced damage bonus only gives 1% bonus on cumulative bonus / level". Max bonus on the server is 300 points or 150%. Thus while holding a normal weapon, you will receieve 1.5% points or a 15% bonus from 10 levels of advanced damage reduction. This is equivalent to holding roughly a +2-+3 weapon depending on type. Using a vorpal +10, you will receive (I assume given the cumulative description an extra 10% bonus off the vorpal).
Medic = only advantage is healing, monster summoning. In my opinion seems to be superior to WM at low levels with infinite gun, but weaker at higher levels because of no vampirism. "Advanced damage reduction" suffers from the same problem as the damage bonus but gives 4%/level instead of 1.
Solution to these problems is to either increase the cap on damage bonus / reduction or increase the % by which either of these skills boosts the cumulative damage/ reduction.
WM and Medic are arguably balanced with each other.
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This brings me to Adrenaline Master. Easiest to use, and takes the least skill. The ONLY weakness is lack of vampirism, but you can cover this by sitting on adrenaline spawns and making vampiric weapons (DUH).
AM + Vampiric Weapons + Triple damage > all other classes. Don't even get me started on how ridiculous globe is. Especially on makes like "Chaka khans dome" with the spawn point right in the middle where you can literally STAND on the spawn point and globe continuously for every wave.
Something is wrong with the game if all you need to do is hold down fire with FLAK / MINES / shock / link and either not move or double jump continously (quad jump?). You could literally tape down the mouse button with mines and go afk. Maybe not quite but pretty damn close.
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Final point: there are now 3 Waves suited specifically for AM.
Waves 9, 15 and 16. By far, these waves also give the most EXP for the least effort.
All Raptors
All Titans
All Lucifers
What do these waves have in common. Monsters that do instant kill damage. Monsters that have high HP. Monsters that have BS dodging (dinos), making mines the only viable option to clear them quickly.
The solution? 99% of non AM players hide for the dino wave, for titan wave, for luci wave. The AM players hide until adernaline is full, throw translocator, GLOBE, trans back, fill adrenaline. Where is the Challenge or Skill in being invincible all the time?
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My solution would be to reduce the amount of instant kill monsters. Mix monster types i.e. dinos + something else.
Alternatively, make better quality monsters i.e. skaarj snipers. Those are quality, they have medium HP, do decent damage. An all around good monster. Warlords are another good example. Reasonable dodging without being unrealistic.
Better quality doesn't mean crazy unrealistic dodging. Those small gasbags now have ridiculous dodging.
Finally, the new titan rocks are bugged ? Even without a direct hit they either do a weird ricochet effect OR they go through walls / floors to hit you (not sure which one it is but it's bugged). I.E. things that wouldn't hit from a regular titan somehow magically hit and insta kill you.
Comments on New Monsters, Class Imbalances
I forgot to add that for medic advanced damage reduction 4%/level * 10 levels = 40% bonus on 250%*0.5 or 40% * 125% so a 50% bonus to damage reduction.
Also, note that weapon master advanced damage bonus is 15% vs 300% from Triple damage. If you are good triple damage WILL last the entire round (don't say it won't).
Finally, the medic monsters are a little annoying... they blend in too well with other monsters and the BLOCK YOUR SHOTS. Both you and your teammates. If possible make them hollow for players like the penetrating effect (not sure if this is possible).
Also, note that weapon master advanced damage bonus is 15% vs 300% from Triple damage. If you are good triple damage WILL last the entire round (don't say it won't).
Finally, the medic monsters are a little annoying... they blend in too well with other monsters and the BLOCK YOUR SHOTS. Both you and your teammates. If possible make them hollow for players like the penetrating effect (not sure if this is possible).
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DW_WailofSuicide
- DW Clan Member
- Posts: 1634
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:00 am
A lot of people have similar criticisms. Trouble is that you're talking about major changes to fix a lot of these issues.
The globe is too powerful, in my opinion, and there have been some worthwhile suggestions to changing it. However, who is going to change it? A change may eventually come but for the time being we have to live with it. Fortunately, if you want to you can freely create an Adrenaline Master just by changing your name.
Waves are continually being reworked in order to try and add variety and challenge.
Monsters that instantly kill you with one hit are kind of an issue but every RPG invasion server I've seen has a similar issue. From what I can tell it's kind of necessary in order to provide a challenge for high level players and also results partially from level adjustment (Which gives monsters damage bonus based on player levels).
Monsters dodging projectile weapons is purely an issue with UT. On higher difficulty levels all bots have insane, precognitive dodging.
The globe is too powerful, in my opinion, and there have been some worthwhile suggestions to changing it. However, who is going to change it? A change may eventually come but for the time being we have to live with it. Fortunately, if you want to you can freely create an Adrenaline Master just by changing your name.
Waves are continually being reworked in order to try and add variety and challenge.
Monsters that instantly kill you with one hit are kind of an issue but every RPG invasion server I've seen has a similar issue. From what I can tell it's kind of necessary in order to provide a challenge for high level players and also results partially from level adjustment (Which gives monsters damage bonus based on player levels).
Monsters dodging projectile weapons is purely an issue with UT. On higher difficulty levels all bots have insane, precognitive dodging.
Thank you for your input player. We'll keep everything you have said in mind when making future adjustments on the server. No matter what, there will always be things that will not be right and we do try to keep things fun by changing out things from time to time. We just added the new titans, and things will be tweaked when we have the time.
Most people seem to like the raptors on a single wave and the other waves that may have a single type of creature. Most regulars know that they need to stay out of harms way, and others announce to everyone that the raptor wave is coming up when they are playing.
Some of the issues involve the rpg mod, and I have meant to change the Chaka's khans dome adrenaline, but haven't had the time to do so yet. I spend many hours either modifying maps, figuring out what to do next on the server, and testing on a seperate server to gauge how things may go before it is put on-line, but sometimes you need alot of people to se what really can happen, and I don't have that ability. Besides having a full-time job and taking care of a pet, and R.L. theres only so much we can accomplish at one time. Try to make the best of the server and hopefully in time everything will be good.
Thanks for your input. I really appreciate what you have pointed out and welcome any future suggestions.
DW>Wraith
Most people seem to like the raptors on a single wave and the other waves that may have a single type of creature. Most regulars know that they need to stay out of harms way, and others announce to everyone that the raptor wave is coming up when they are playing.
Some of the issues involve the rpg mod, and I have meant to change the Chaka's khans dome adrenaline, but haven't had the time to do so yet. I spend many hours either modifying maps, figuring out what to do next on the server, and testing on a seperate server to gauge how things may go before it is put on-line, but sometimes you need alot of people to se what really can happen, and I don't have that ability. Besides having a full-time job and taking care of a pet, and R.L. theres only so much we can accomplish at one time. Try to make the best of the server and hopefully in time everything will be good.
Thanks for your input. I really appreciate what you have pointed out and welcome any future suggestions.
DW>Wraith
First and foremost Welcome to the forums!
You're correct about RPG class imbalances, that is a known and noted problem. We have had some of these discussion in private however as wail pointed out we would have to radically change the mod. Ideally medics would get a low level resupply and throw mini vials or something out. XP should be awarded more for healing (even for the extra 150 hp), then running around fragging.
AMs are hard to balance and yes the globe is a big deal, however we could limit the globe usage by setting the max adrenaline to (for example) 300. Also in future code modifications we could up the adrenaline usage for the globe (right now its 10 per second i believe). However ideally we would block direct hit, and do some small percentage of damage from splash. We could remove the globe entirely and call it something along the lines of the achillies heel.
I'm not sure about WM, their role is kinda limited in general. They do nothing to support the other two classes and thats throws the whole concept of an RPG for me. Maybe the ability to spawn ammo packs or something, or have an adrenaline artifact to produce weapons.
I respect you're opinions and I'm curious to know what name you play under on our server.
-Hornet
You're correct about RPG class imbalances, that is a known and noted problem. We have had some of these discussion in private however as wail pointed out we would have to radically change the mod. Ideally medics would get a low level resupply and throw mini vials or something out. XP should be awarded more for healing (even for the extra 150 hp), then running around fragging.
AMs are hard to balance and yes the globe is a big deal, however we could limit the globe usage by setting the max adrenaline to (for example) 300. Also in future code modifications we could up the adrenaline usage for the globe (right now its 10 per second i believe). However ideally we would block direct hit, and do some small percentage of damage from splash. We could remove the globe entirely and call it something along the lines of the achillies heel.
I'm not sure about WM, their role is kinda limited in general. They do nothing to support the other two classes and thats throws the whole concept of an RPG for me. Maybe the ability to spawn ammo packs or something, or have an adrenaline artifact to produce weapons.
I respect you're opinions and I'm curious to know what name you play under on our server.
-Hornet
as the president of the invasion community around here, i'd like to say thanks for posting. here's the key to the city, a red ribbon sash and top hat, and a coupon for 1 free beer at the local dive.
aside from all that, you make some good points.
I've had ideas about how to work the globe and reduce it's effectiveness without outright removal. there's a thread on here about a skill idea, it's in there.
as far as wm needing a boost to keep up with am, i'm not so sure about that. if there's a wm of my level playing, i will not have the high score.
as far as the waves you mention, there's a couple of caveats that non-am's don't realize.
first of all on 16, i'm the guy that goes out and pins lucifer down so everyone gets xp. if my tactic works, i get the kill about 1/4 of the time . . . if the tactic works. i have to get him to corner me (which corners him) then everyone can pretty much beat ass from there. on top of that i have to be quick on the draw with a weapon change as his health turns yellow/red to get the kill. the hard part is getting him baited proplerly, there has to be an interior corner, i have to have a minelayer of energy +3, etc. there are really only a small handful of maps where all the stars align and it works out for me. so it's tactical and possible to totally pwn, but more often than not i'm not the guy.
2ndly, on 15 . . . am's have the globe so they can survive the rock hits. true. however, that wave has 2 distinct problems... the inertia and breakup.
inertia: when a rock connects, you get tossed across the planet. later in that wave when there are 40 eleven titans all throwing rock after rock into my face, it's quite possible for 3 or 4 to hit in succession with ADDITIVE inertia. on Last Glacier Base the other night, i was getting knocked so far in the air that it was easier to trans back to base and come out the teleporter and start over. that was a constant problem.
breakup: i think mines are the only projectile that will break up a rock. when it hits the rock, the mine goes away and the rock breaks up. net-gain = absolutely squat. i now have a bunch of incoming little rocks that do partial additive inertia. AND i don't have the energy gain from the mine i shot. the only way to do it 'right' is to lay the mines on the floor so they run under the rocks, but even that is only half good cuz when they jump to attack from distance, half the time they get rocked.
so again it kinda has to be in the cards for it to work for me... minelayer of E 3, enclosed/indoor, but large enuf map to thin the titans out. . . but with as many titans as there are, that's nigh impossible. meaning even tho i may not die, i'm not getting near as many points as it may appear when i'm out there globing amongst 50 titans.
this is the wave where wm's and medics can really catch up or pull away from a crowd. a solid weapon (shock, link, rl) that has been topped off by a kind am and the bunkered-down wm/medic will really kill hard.
wave 9 (raptors) is usually the wave where i catch up. as far as i'm concerned there's only 1 downside here and it's partially my own fault: when there's not enuf baddies to keep my globe up. raptors must be using queen AI because they tend to spawn/teleport behind me. if the map is big and open (Dome of Dumb, Terra, Rock Paper Shitters) that i will die because i was conserving e and got snapped in the ass by surprise. i bet i die half the time on this wave.
every class has at least 1 giant advantage that they can earn in their early levels. WM can get all weapons with positive bonus just for spawning. That imo is a bigger advantage than Vamp cuz it's relatively cheap. MM get the healing weapon AND experience just for shooting, again cheap. However . . . even tho AMs get globe and adren-regen skills fairly cheap, globe is almost worthless without 200 db, 100 ws and a weapon appropriate for the level. most often minelayer then flak. with any other weapon it either doesn't have the reliable dmg-per-second (rl, shock, snipes) or ammo (mp5, mini, bio, link) to sustain anything for an appreciable length of time even with resup 4. and flak is a FAR 2nd to minelayer which is hit or miss in appearance.
While the globe is a tremendous advantage for am, it's not the bees knees. I use it alot but i still die a lot as well for reasons that vary literally from map to map. TBH in it's current form i don't think it puts an am too obviously head and shoulders above the other classes. while it makes a guy not take damage, turning it on immediately forces the player to consider another half dozen factors.
aside from all that, you make some good points.
I've had ideas about how to work the globe and reduce it's effectiveness without outright removal. there's a thread on here about a skill idea, it's in there.
as far as wm needing a boost to keep up with am, i'm not so sure about that. if there's a wm of my level playing, i will not have the high score.
as far as the waves you mention, there's a couple of caveats that non-am's don't realize.
first of all on 16, i'm the guy that goes out and pins lucifer down so everyone gets xp. if my tactic works, i get the kill about 1/4 of the time . . . if the tactic works. i have to get him to corner me (which corners him) then everyone can pretty much beat ass from there. on top of that i have to be quick on the draw with a weapon change as his health turns yellow/red to get the kill. the hard part is getting him baited proplerly, there has to be an interior corner, i have to have a minelayer of energy +3, etc. there are really only a small handful of maps where all the stars align and it works out for me. so it's tactical and possible to totally pwn, but more often than not i'm not the guy.
2ndly, on 15 . . . am's have the globe so they can survive the rock hits. true. however, that wave has 2 distinct problems... the inertia and breakup.
inertia: when a rock connects, you get tossed across the planet. later in that wave when there are 40 eleven titans all throwing rock after rock into my face, it's quite possible for 3 or 4 to hit in succession with ADDITIVE inertia. on Last Glacier Base the other night, i was getting knocked so far in the air that it was easier to trans back to base and come out the teleporter and start over. that was a constant problem.
breakup: i think mines are the only projectile that will break up a rock. when it hits the rock, the mine goes away and the rock breaks up. net-gain = absolutely squat. i now have a bunch of incoming little rocks that do partial additive inertia. AND i don't have the energy gain from the mine i shot. the only way to do it 'right' is to lay the mines on the floor so they run under the rocks, but even that is only half good cuz when they jump to attack from distance, half the time they get rocked.
so again it kinda has to be in the cards for it to work for me... minelayer of E 3, enclosed/indoor, but large enuf map to thin the titans out. . . but with as many titans as there are, that's nigh impossible. meaning even tho i may not die, i'm not getting near as many points as it may appear when i'm out there globing amongst 50 titans.
this is the wave where wm's and medics can really catch up or pull away from a crowd. a solid weapon (shock, link, rl) that has been topped off by a kind am and the bunkered-down wm/medic will really kill hard.
wave 9 (raptors) is usually the wave where i catch up. as far as i'm concerned there's only 1 downside here and it's partially my own fault: when there's not enuf baddies to keep my globe up. raptors must be using queen AI because they tend to spawn/teleport behind me. if the map is big and open (Dome of Dumb, Terra, Rock Paper Shitters) that i will die because i was conserving e and got snapped in the ass by surprise. i bet i die half the time on this wave.
every class has at least 1 giant advantage that they can earn in their early levels. WM can get all weapons with positive bonus just for spawning. That imo is a bigger advantage than Vamp cuz it's relatively cheap. MM get the healing weapon AND experience just for shooting, again cheap. However . . . even tho AMs get globe and adren-regen skills fairly cheap, globe is almost worthless without 200 db, 100 ws and a weapon appropriate for the level. most often minelayer then flak. with any other weapon it either doesn't have the reliable dmg-per-second (rl, shock, snipes) or ammo (mp5, mini, bio, link) to sustain anything for an appreciable length of time even with resup 4. and flak is a FAR 2nd to minelayer which is hit or miss in appearance.
While the globe is a tremendous advantage for am, it's not the bees knees. I use it alot but i still die a lot as well for reasons that vary literally from map to map. TBH in it's current form i don't think it puts an am too obviously head and shoulders above the other classes. while it makes a guy not take damage, turning it on immediately forces the player to consider another half dozen factors.
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SystemError
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:00 pm
It would have made more sense if WM got 1 artifact like the other classes have.
Magic weapon maker should have been a WM artifact. :idea:
Cause having globe, triple damage and making vorpals, inf guns, energy, ect. at will is kinda much.
Especially since most maps on server are adren friendly maps.
My pal silenze will hate me for saying this but it makes sense to me
Magic weapon maker should have been a WM artifact. :idea:
Cause having globe, triple damage and making vorpals, inf guns, energy, ect. at will is kinda much.
Especially since most maps on server are adren friendly maps.
My pal silenze will hate me for saying this but it makes sense to me
You would need to have the DruidsRPG creator give weaponsmaster an artifact. There is nothing I can do about it. Its all how its been written. If you don't like the class you have chosen, you can either reset it or else change your name and pick something new.
As someone whos played all three classes to 100+ levels, I have to say they are pretty balanced.
Adren masters can kill stuff that noone else can or will, but by the same token, they will always be a whole lot weaker than weapon masters or medic masters at the same level (because they spent stat points on adren skills).
Weapon masters do well if the monster population is kept in check. Also remember that since weapon masters are in the wild they will get artifacts and should not forget to use them.
Medics have a huge disadvantage in the fact that they dont get to enjoy using all the various flavors of weapons available and so their ability to live longer than everyone else kind of makes up for it.
I'd say 130 is the level at which things even out between all classes, at the early levels(25-50) medics have an advantage with infinite ammo and self healing, at 50-100 adrens with good builds and smarts. Beyond that its all a tossup.
Adren masters can kill stuff that noone else can or will, but by the same token, they will always be a whole lot weaker than weapon masters or medic masters at the same level (because they spent stat points on adren skills).
Weapon masters do well if the monster population is kept in check. Also remember that since weapon masters are in the wild they will get artifacts and should not forget to use them.
Medics have a huge disadvantage in the fact that they dont get to enjoy using all the various flavors of weapons available and so their ability to live longer than everyone else kind of makes up for it.
I'd say 130 is the level at which things even out between all classes, at the early levels(25-50) medics have an advantage with infinite ammo and self healing, at 50-100 adrens with good builds and smarts. Beyond that its all a tossup.
Kryphos a.k.a DW>K
choose your path: The way of peace or the way of WAR
only one destination: TOTAL ANNIHILATION!
choose your path: The way of peace or the way of WAR
only one destination: TOTAL ANNIHILATION!