Death Warrant Forums

Level cap is a necessary and good thing in my opinion. Although it's correct to point out that a lot of things are not priced (in stat points) with the idea of level caps in mind and will need to be adjusted.

I also think that players should be able to respec their characters on the fly, or maybe every rank. It takes a lot of work to level up and you shouldn't be forced to stick with one build forever, esp if you built not knowing there would be a cap.

DW_FrankyTheFly wrote:Why a level cap?? If a 200 level player cannot level up why would he still play?? I don't understand this logic. . .

DW>Ant wrote:Level cap is now set at 200. Reasoning: one of the major issues we've been encountering during testing (offline and online and even during live play) is that the level gaps are becoming too great to make it an enjoyable experience for low levels. Low levels will have to wait a very long time while they watch a level 200+ character solo the map (even with the piercing factor included, it's still possible to solo rank III maps if all abilities and attributes were purchased).
Another reason for the level cap: Monster Evolution is about team collaboration and tactics. Setting a limit on the number of items you can purchase forces you to carefully select which abilities you want and how to structure your build. Your character will become more unique than any other character. As for the team collaboration part, team collaboration quickly diminishes if the characters are self reliable. If a Protective can have maxed healing and tanking abilities, why would they need Support's summons to help them to tank, or why would they need Berserker's offensive abilities if they can quickly replenish health. I'll restate that setting a level limit forces the all characters to choose which perfection they want to be rather than having it all.

DW>FrankyTheFly wrote:if you want to put a limit on character's strength, why not using better realistic caps on skills and stats. In my opinion every class should be able to get everything maxed, we simply need to make things in a way that a maxed character CANNOT be a god.

Support class misses out on half the summoning abilities. They can only purchase 1 of 2 summoning roots.

DW>FrankyTheFly wrote:Take the Beserker for instance, I understand that a 500 level Beserker could have 800 ammo bonus and wouldn't need any support help at all, but why not putting better caps on that stats instead? I think Max ammo should be at 300 at rank 4, not 800!! What's the idea of having so much ammo anyway if there is a cap on level preventing anyone, with common sense, to go up to 800!! That just doesn't make any sense! Same for Retaliation, that skill cost so much, who would be stupid enough to go waste so much point for so little reward?! Reducing it to max level to 5 instead of 10 and reduce the cost of it would fix any OP issues there.

First off lighten up on the exclamation marks. No need to become emotional over this.

I can imagine a Berserker build that can make use of 800 ammo bonus. Berserkers gain the most benefit through ammo bonus due to Locked and Loaded, Ammo dump pickups, and even hitting lockers. My Berserker gains 1350 Minigun rounds and 135 Lightning Gun rounds simply by touching a locker that doesn't add ammo to base value. Very useful on maps with maps on sparse ammo. Do you want me create a level 150 Berserker with 800 Ammo Bonus to see its use?

Or you can think that the Berserker has unlimited ammo cap. 800 cap doesn't mean that you have to get up to 800. I'm just diversifying the number of builds you can have rather than having all berserkers being the same as everyone else.

DW>Ant wrote:Level cap is now set at 200. Reasoning: one of the major issues we've been encountering during testing (offline and online and even during live play) is that the level gaps are becoming too great to make it an enjoyable experience for low levels. Low levels will have to wait a very long time while they watch a level 200+ character solo the map (even with the piercing factor included, it's still possible to solo rank III maps if all abilities and attributes were purchased).

Well this never was a problem on MM. When the high lvl players wanted to play impossible stuff like Absolute Hell or Deep Violet or Cheapshot's, they did. I can't understand the reasoning you mention here at all. High lvl players don't get any exp on all the low level maps, so they have to make new characters to be able to play these maps. They have no gain in playing their high char.
Now lets say there are enough high players to win a vote of a hard map like nocturne (hard for low lvls), why do all the high players now have to respect 1 or 2 low level players? It is a majority vote. If most are low, they get a low lvl map, if most are high, they get a high lvl map. I don't see why you have to cap it for that reason.
I get if you say, you don't want all the builds to be equal, not all the protectives to have all the abilities maxed out. More variety in the builds is more fun to play on the server. And I also agree with the fact that a maxed out protective doesn't need a berserker to kill the enemy. (He needs ammo though and if he wants magic weapons he will need a berserker). But yes he only has to grab some ammo every now and then and only needs the magic weapon once, this won't bind team play at all.

If I look at the stuff Franky wrote, and at myself who send his lvl 200 into retirement because there is no gain in using it anymore, I can't agree with a lvl cap being the right solution.
I see 2 things that would get rid of any of the problems mentioned in an instant. Both of them aren't easy to put in a considerably amount of programming work.

1. Stricter recommended lvl for all the maps:
And I don't only mean exp wise. Nothing is keeping a rank 4 to rape a map like forgotten fane or colluseum right now. I mean something like a HP reduction if you are too high.
For example: a lvl 150 enteres a lvl 50 map = 50/150 of his usual base hp. Same can be used for adrenaline, support without adren = no rank 4 pets on low lvl maps, protective with no adrden = no big spirits or life cord on low lvl maps, berserker on low lvl map = no sacrifice, upgrading to +3 weapons on low lvl maps.

If they want to play a low lvl map, make them feel like a low lvl. As bonus you can leave at least a bit of the exp (25%) even for high lvls on the maps. I couldn't even play half the maps at the end.

And of course every map need reconsidering the recommended lvl for this idea.

2. Forced builds:
Include more forced builds into the game, like you did with the trigger happy/ life siphon. If you only cap the lvl you will never see some of the abilities, or like franky said, 800 ammo on a berserker, or any ammo on a support, or 800 adren on a support.
Don't cap the amount of points you can gain, with a lvl cap, but the amount of abilities you can buy together. You are actually only reducing the variety of builds with your lvl cap.

Some possibilities:
you can only buy the last 2 lvls of either ammo dump, or nrg transfer
you can only buy the last 100 hp on a berserker if you have max life siphon
you can only buy the last 300 hp on a protective if you have high metabolism
you can only buy high metabolism if your average resistances aren't over 40%
you can either buy high meta or life cord.
you can only buy the last 400 adrenaline if you have a rank4 pet
you can only buy vehicle skills if you have no mayor pet (mantas are ok)
you can only buy more than 0 ammo bonus if your hp bonus is less than 500 (protectives)

the possibilities are endless...

Azmodan wrote:
1. Stricter recommended lvl for all the maps:
And I don't only mean exp wise. Nothing is keeping a rank 4 to rape a map like forgotten fane or colluseum right now. I mean something like a HP reduction if you are too high.
For example: a lvl 150 enteres a lvl 50 map = 50/150 of his usual base hp. Same can be used for adrenaline, support without adren = no rank 4 pets on low lvl maps, protective with no adrden = no big spirits or life cord on low lvl maps, berserker on low lvl map = no sacrifice, upgrading to +3 weapons on low lvl maps.

I would like to see this actually ... A rank 1 map would allow only rank 1 caps and abilities to be used, etc. I see this as a potential nightmare to implement though.

I can imagine how tough it would be, if you try to only allow rank 2 abilities on a rank 2 map (lvl 4/5 ammo dump, lvl 2/3 adren drip etc, in addition to the stuff that starts with rank 3 or 4 like reloading gun maker or freezing maker.

That's why I went for the adren and hp. The curses of the purple krall and the new curse ability for player monsters might be close to what I intended with this.
Playing the numbers for my lvl 200 support for a lvl 50 map:
600 base hp -> 150 base hp
475 adren -> 119 adren
the formula could be adjusted to fit anything you like, not just linear reduction: (map lvl)^1.5/(player lvl)^1.5 would result in
75 base hp and 59 adren.

Something different, I would appreciate the exact numbers of the costs and requirements of the new abilities as well as the changes in prices for the old ones, so I can adjust them in the Wiki.

Azmodan wrote:

DW>Ant wrote:Level cap is now set at 200. Reasoning: one of the major issues we've been encountering during testing (offline and online and even during live play) is that the level gaps are becoming too great to make it an enjoyable experience for low levels. Low levels will have to wait a very long time while they watch a level 200+ character solo the map (even with the piercing factor included, it's still possible to solo rank III maps if all abilities and attributes were purchased).

Well this never was a problem on MM. When the high lvl players wanted to play impossible stuff like Absolute Hell or Deep Violet or Cheapshot's, they did. I can't understand the reasoning you mention here at all. High lvl players don't get any exp on all the low level maps, so they have to make new characters to be able to play these maps. They have no gain in playing their high char.

Monster Mash is different from here.
Monster Mash monsters are constantly respawning everywhere. Typically there isn't a hiding spot in hard maps for MM. Monster Mash also has monster levels where the monster's level is equal to the lowest level living player.

Monster Evolution falls with high level players because monsters do not continuously spawn everywhere. High levels can easily take shelter and regenerate health, ammo, or whatever. It's a long process specially that dead players don't respawn every wave. All dead players will have to sit and watch this high level regenerate health. You can bring up the player monsters, but for some reason multiple players find it wrong to kill players. They choose to either leave the server or watch for 15 plus minutes.

Azmodan wrote:Now lets say there are enough high players to win a vote of a hard map like nocturne (hard for low lvls), why do all the high players now have to respect 1 or 2 low level players? It is a majority vote. If most are low, they get a low lvl map, if most are high, they get a high lvl map. I don't see why you have to cap it for that reason.

This statement still holds true. The majority of the players will play the map they want.
Although this is going off scope from the level cap discussion, one thing I should point out. If a low level map is voted, the high levels can easily change to a lower level account to play that map. If a high level map is voted, then the low levels typically don't have a high level player to play that map. Just wanted to point out that the lower levels are at a handicap with the variety of playable maps for them.

Azmodan wrote:1. Stricter recommended lvl for all the maps:
And I don't only mean exp wise. Nothing is keeping a rank 4 to rape a map like forgotten fane or colluseum right now. I mean something like a HP reduction if you are too high.
For example: a lvl 150 enteres a lvl 50 map = 50/150 of his usual base hp. Same can be used for adrenaline, support without adren = no rank 4 pets on low lvl maps, protective with no adrden = no big spirits or life cord on low lvl maps, berserker on low lvl map = no sacrifice, upgrading to +3 weapons on low lvl maps.

If they want to play a low lvl map, make them feel like a low lvl. As bonus you can leave at least a bit of the exp (25%) even for high lvls on the maps. I couldn't even play half the maps at the end.

And of course every map need reconsidering the recommended lvl for this idea.

This is a good idea actually. This is definitely something very complicated implement though. Not just the coding process, but computing-wise, too. Last thing I want to do is have an abstract ability search for the level limiter info actor (foreach iterations are very slow) every time a Berserker damages a monster for hp, or gain adrenaline for taking damage (protective). It'll be very heavy on the cpu's side. I'll have to restructure much of the RPG format to get around this.

Also this may confuse players why some of their abilities are missing, or don't work as efficiently.

Azmodan wrote:2. Forced builds:
Include more forced builds into the game, like you did with the trigger happy/ life siphon. If you only cap the lvl you will never see some of the abilities, or like franky said, 800 ammo on a berserker, or any ammo on a support, or 800 adren on a support.
Don't cap the amount of points you can gain, with a lvl cap, but the amount of abilities you can buy together. You are actually only reducing the variety of builds with your lvl cap.

Caps are only calculated through class and class rank. Making stat caps adjusted by which abilities will require a different RPG structure (specially when dealing with client replication).

Isn't setting a strict build the same as setting a level cap? What's the purpose of leveling up if I can max all my abilities by level ~200. The major difference is that when you do level up, it just prevents you from earning experience (or points for player monster options) in other maps (ie: a level 300 playing in a level 200 map).
With the current setup though, the level 200 can still continuously earn experience points as a level 200 player enabling more player monster options for them.

DW_Ant wrote:
You can bring up the player monsters, but for some reason multiple players find it wrong to kill players. They choose to either leave the server or watch for 15 plus minutes.

The majority voted the map and strangely enough most of the dead players choose to wait for rez, rather than to turn it into a DM. Maybe it's just you who has a problem with it? :sgiggle:
Joke.
There is nothing that will erase this situation, hard map means someone has to be last and try to do it alone. As you pointed out, the problem is if the last is rank3 or 4 and it is actually a rank1 or 2 map. The real problems start when it is a lvl 20 player on a rank 4 map, who doesn't know what to do. You can't even kill him if you try to.

DW_Ant wrote:This is a good idea actually. This is definitely something very complicated implement though. Not just the coding process, but computing-wise, too. Last thing I want to do is have an abstract ability search for the level limiter info actor (foreach iterations are very slow) every time a Berserker damages a monster for hp, or gain adrenaline for taking damage (protective). It'll be very heavy on the cpu's side. I'll have to restructure much of the RPG format to get around this.

Also this may confuse players why some of their abilities are missing, or don't work as efficiently.

Does it really need that much computing power to check the lvl and then just reduce the hp, adren and ammo, before the character is spawned? I get it if you reduce each ability, but just the base stats?

Confusion could be reduced by a message: "DW>Ant's power has been reduced because his level is too high" :sitwasntme:

DW_Ant wrote:Isn't setting a strict build the same as setting a level cap? What's the purpose of leveling up if I can max all my abilities by level ~200. The major difference is that when you do level up, it just prevents you from earning experience (or points for player monster options) in other maps (ie: a level 300 playing in a level 200 map).
With the current setup though, the level 200 can still continuously earn experience points as a level 200 player enabling more player monster options for them.

It is not a strict build, you can choose between many abilities to form the sort of build you like. And the big point at the moment is: you can't max all abilities by lvl 200... A Berserker gets the closest i guess but a protective can barely even buy all base stats and resis with the 2000 points (825hp, 125 ammo, 175 adren, 500 resis)
I would love more adren, or car skills on my support, but no points left for that. It is true, it ends at some point, which is similar to a lvl cap. But you can choose what abilities are important and which do I buy later (cautiousness, iron legs, vehicle stuff, ammo, that pet keeper etc.) You can still buy it later instead of just throwing it away.

My suggestion is that you still earn Experience after lvl 200 but as you lvl over 200 you don't gain any more stat points to spend essentially capping it out at 200

That is all ROBOTO

Azmodan wrote:There is nothing that will erase this situation, hard map means someone has to be last and try to do it alone. As you pointed out, the problem is if the last is rank3 or 4 and it is actually a rank1 or 2 map. The real problems start when it is a lvl 20 player on a rank 4 map, who doesn't know what to do. You can't even kill him if you try to.

Low levels are defeatable especially if you have amplify damage ability, or if you're playing as a one-shot kill monster (Facehugger).

Azmodan wrote:Does it really need that much computing power to check the lvl and then just reduce the hp, adren and ammo, before the character is spawned? I get it if you reduce each ability, but just the base stats?

It requires computing power when it looks for the Level Limiter Info actor (placed by the mapper). I could store a reference of that actor as a variable for each artifact you possess, but I cannot do that to abstract abilities (Classes that cannot be instantiated...only static functions are called). Abstract abilities typically are passive abilities like Life Siphon, Retaliation, Protective's perk, Berserker's perk, Enhanced pickups, Perpetuating Soul's damage perk, etc...

I can either overwrite all abilities to pass on a reference to the level limiter info actor by parameter. Due to polymorphism, I'll have to change all abilities to match the ability's parent class's function header. This means it's going to require a bit of work, and more bandwidth since clients and server replicate all abilities.

Or I can call a foreach iteration (very slow) every time those functions are called.

DW_Ant wrote:Or I can call a foreach iteration (very slow) every time those functions are called.[/color]

Aren't the functions only called once when you spawn? And like I said, I don't think it is necessary to check each ability but only HP and adrenalin.