True weapons masters

[Desko]

I'm not seeing how this is relevant except to support my point. Yes, Medics don't get all the weapons when they spawn, and yes, they don't get all positive magic weapons, and yes they don't get denial, or any number of abilities that are useful but not integral to a character being able to use the different magic weapons. I guess having all these advantages isn't enough for other classes?

Neither is Resupply integral to using other weapon types. When I made my first Medic on this server in 6 or 7 months ago, I didn't even buy Loaded Medic. I just used all the other weapon types just fine. Ask Flak_Monkey, he was over at my house when I first played.

Also, I don't see how it supports your point at all. Why would Medics want to lose their Medic Weapon in order to maybe have some magic weapons that they will lose the instant they die? Medics are guaranteed a Magic weapon with Infinity ammo and the ability to heal. Why trade that to perhaps have a chance of using some other weapon types?

Pretty much agreed there. That's why I'm not seriously proposing any such changes.

Ok then. I don't understand the reasoning behind your argument. Your arguing for something that you don't even believe.

I'd disagree with you that the Medic class "functions as well as any other class" though. It just isn't dysfunctional enough to warrant the work that would be needed to change it.

They have Unlimited ammo, the ability to heal themselves to +150, and incredible damage reduction. What more do they need to function?

Yes, but 100% of good people agree that using RPG with non-equally levelled characters in competitive gametypes is crap. I remember when I was playing on Disastrous Consequences, I had a low level character when they voted on a vCTF map. Level 25 vs. level 200 character, hmm. Probably one of the least enjoyable UT2004 experiences I've had.

I disagree, as long as the level and stat caps are low, it can be incredibly fun.

I don't think being closed-minded to exploring potential future development is altogether that helpful, but I guess it's better than having to listen to constant bitching about favoritism.

I'm not close minded about developing the server. I'm just opposed in every way to the idea that Bomzin mentioned. Also, your final statement is lost on me.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

I'm not seeing how this is relevant except to support my point. Yes, Medics don't get all the weapons when they spawn, and yes, they don't get all positive magic weapons, and yes they don't get denial, or any number of abilities that are useful but not integral to a character being able to use the different magic weapons. I guess having all these advantages isn't enough for other classes?

Neither is Resupply integral to using other weapon types. When I made my first Medic on this server in 6 or 7 months ago, I didn't even buy Loaded Medic. I just used all the other weapon types just fine. Ask Flak_Monkey, he was over at my house when I first played.

And, uh, for how long did this go on? 'Cause playing without resupply & loaded weapons or the infinite medic weapon sounds pretty painful. What'd you do, invest 200 points in ammo bonus just so you could get 45 shots with the Lightning Gun per wave instead of 15?

Also, I don't see how it supports your point at all.

So, you don't see how it supports my point that giving Medics some way to regenerate ammunition doesn't give them OMFGUBAR power when you consider all the abilities they don't have access to?

Why would Medics want to lose their Medic Weapon in order to maybe have some magic weapons that they will lose the instant they die? Medics are guaranteed a Magic weapon with Infinity ammo and the ability to heal. Why trade that to perhaps have a chance of using some other weapon types?

Because it adds variety to gameplay, being able to utilize all the different weapons? Because it's a good design decision, when you're talking about RPG, with ~20 different weapon modifiers, not to restrict a class to using pretty much one? Because it cuts down on the ability to rely solely on the MP5? Because it allows me to make cooler monsters without people complaining that I'm showing favoritism to Medics by not nerfing their only consistent weapon choice? Because we could have a more interesting situation where Medics aren't totally front-loaded as a class, but get useful abilities throughout low and mid levels, up until the point where they get monsters? Because I'd be more inspired to actually make some new magic weapon modifiers if I was actually able to play with them as more than a lark?

Those seem like pretty good reasons to me.

Pretty much agreed there. That's why I'm not seriously proposing any such changes.

Ok then. I don't understand the reasoning behind your argument. Your arguing for something that you don't even believe.

It's called a hypothetical situation. It'll never happen because every time the subject gets brought up, even though it's probably the most glaring weakness any class in RPG has, we get the same argument on pigeonholing Medics into using the medic weapon alone. Apparently being able to use the weapons that other classes use reliably would be "too powerful."

Even though Adrenaline Masters have crap for health regeneration, at least UT2004 has a built in combo they can use to give them some help there. Sadly, there is no ammo combo.

[Desko]

And, uh, for how long did this go on? 'Cause playing without resupply & loaded weapons or the infinite medic weapon sounds pretty painful. What'd you do, invest 200 points in ammo bonus just so you could get 45 shots with the Lightning Gun per wave instead of 15?

About a week I think. I just used all of my weapons, it wasn't that hard. I spent all my points in Monster stuff. I was able to use my magic weapons reliably until the round ended. It wasn't hard at all.

So, you don't see how it supports my point that giving Medics some way to regenerate ammunition doesn't give them OMFGUBAR power when you consider all the abilities they don't have access to?

How do you not understand that giving Medics the ability to Globe would overpower them? As a Medic, I take no damage if anyone 70 or under is on. Except for Raptors, which deal me 20 damage per bite, and Titans, which have the possibility to kill me if I don't break their rocks. Why would giving a tank that powerful full invulnerability be a good idea?

Because it adds variety to gameplay, being able to utilize all the different weapons? Because it's a good design decision, when you're talking about RPG, with ~20 different weapon modifiers, not to restrict a class to using pretty much one? Because it cuts down on the ability to rely solely on the MP5? Because it allows me to make cooler monsters without people complaining that I'm showing favoritism to Medics by not nerfing their only consistent weapon choice? Because we could have a more interesting situation where Medics aren't totally front-loaded as a class, but get useful abilities throughout low and mid levels, up until the point where they get monsters? Because I'd be more inspired to actually make some new magic weapon modifiers if I was actually able to play with them as more than a lark?

I never get bored using the Medic Weapon. If someone does, then they can play a Weapon Master.

Are you saying that in an RPG like D&D with 20+ weapon types, it would be good to allow every class to use them all efficiently? Should Clerics run around with Greatswords hacking their foes to tiny bits? Should Rogues sneak around with two handed scythes? The objective of an RPG is to make all the classes different.

Maybe you can make monsters cool without making them resistant to a weapon type.

Behold! I submit to you ideas for Medic Weapons that make them more interesting than any other class! Several months ago!
That topic that you made.

Even though Adrenaline Masters have crap for health regeneration, at least UT2004 has a built in combo they can use to give them some help there. Sadly, there is no ammo combo.

If there was a way to deactivate booster, it would be useful. Sadly, booster is more of a detriment then a help. If you play an Adrenaline Master, you will notice it as well.

[DW_Bomzin]

Actually, I was going to increase the amount of ammo players can hold. I just didn't know which line on the config file to change, so the next time I remember, I'm going to up the amount of ammo you can have. Someplayers have run out of things to buy and this seemed like something that could be increased without affecting everything else.

Cool , any more ammo and I will have some inf weapons , shock , flack , rocks all substainable with any more ammo. You might rethink it .

Instead raise the lower end of the server to lowest living player being 50 and add on some more health for something to purchase. Just a thought.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

Are you saying that in an RPG like D&D with 20+ weapon types, it would be good to allow every class to use them all efficiently? Should Clerics run around with Greatswords hacking their foes to tiny bits? Should Rogues sneak around with two handed scythes? The objective of an RPG is to make all the classes different.

Funny thing, in D&D, there are little to no restrictions on the magic properties your weapons can have. (And, at least in 3rd edition, little restriction on using particular weapons) Maybe Forsakers, who give up the ability to use all forms of magic, but in exchange get lots and lots of other stuff. I don't see any such trade off being made here.

Behold! I submit to you ideas for Medic Weapons that make them more interesting than any other class! Several months ago!
That topic that you made.

See, here's the thing: Back then people objected to those kinds of changes. They are things that are feasible within the current system, but people don't want that to happen for whatever reason. It's just too contentious.

Even though adding a Medic Protection weapon, or something to that effect, would be a good move in the right direction (IMO), it's still working within the existing paradigm of "stick with 1 weapon ad nauseam." Why that's some sort of ideal state of affairs is beyond me, when things like healing and protection could be active or passive abilities that work in conjunction with standard magic weapon types, rather than duplicating functionality just to segregate off medic only weapons.

If there was a way to deactivate booster, it would be useful. Sadly, booster is more of a detriment then a help. If you play an Adrenaline Master, you will notice it as well.

You can deactivate it if you want. IIRC, I have Berserk and Invisibility deactivated.

EDIT: Anyway, it's pretty funny how far off topic this has gotten, maybe we should start another thread? I dunno.

[Inspector]

To keep going off topic, I would like to see medics able to summon 2 titans again without the use of a summoning charm. Now that the titans are mini, they wouldn't get in the way like they have before. I could see it as an advanced ability, only purchasable as a higher level. Lower levels that play the "monster master" class if you will, would not be able to summon them so it would not be very common that a medic would have 2 titans. Other then that, I don't think the medics need a change with the weapons they have available. However, it would be nice to change a medic weapon to a regular weapon with no stats, so they wouldn't loose their MP5 or other weapons.

[DW_Mobius]

Ummmm. Wow. Alright, I'll throw in my two cents.

When I started my Medic all the way back in August I think, I had a very quick start, maxing my DB before lvl 45. This made the game for my lvl range very easy. I quickly outpaced WM's and AM's of my same level just because I could kill so quickly, and had very quick fingers for dodging incoming fire. After maxing my DR around lvl 80, and AdvDR around 85, I could keep pace with players 150 - 200 levels above me until waves 10-12. However, that was only when the above mention players were playing casually, and when they wanted too, they would jet off and leave me in the dust. I just thought to myself that when I got up to their levels that I would be able to the same.

Now that I'm up there, I see AM's globing and tripling, WM's tripling and keeping their health up with vampirism, and I'm stuck just globing and staying alive (Actually, I just triple and die). Either way, a medic has no way of using a triple and staying alive like the other classes and as a result has to play much more cautiously at the higher waves, because the extra DR only goes so far (You still take damage with that extra DR). WM's actively heal themselves with Vampirism, Adrenaline Masters globe forever and leech energy, never requiring healing, and medics slowly but surely take damage, or switch to a globe and do less damage, which will yield less kills, and less adrenaline to support the higher requirement for running a globe. They can't use energy or vampiric weapons, so, the best they can do is run away, hide, heal themselves, and miss out.

The way I would like to see things would be to give medics resupply, and the ability to simply designate one weapon as a simple healing weapon, while not giving it infinite ammuntion. This would change several things, by forcing medics to buy levels of resupply, it would prevent them from having it so easy off in the beginning, because they wouldn't be able to dump everything into DB, and allow them to use weapons everyone else does. This will give medics the ability to have... (I guess the best phrase is "variety of gameplay"), and also help them to keep up at higher levels when the server is full, since it's next to impossible to keep up multi kills and thus adrenaline with 19 people shooting the same monsters you are.

I don't see any reason why a medic should be content with just one mediocre weapon. It's not just energy weapons we're talking about here anyways, I have a liking for Null weapons, and I imagine I could make good use of protection weapons if only I could use them. I would also like a good reason to start buying some max ammo bonus now that I'm basically out of skills and stats to buy, and if you play on vent with me, you understand my opinion on monsters and experienced healing, and you also know that I'm not going to waste valuable skill points for a skill is not going to help me when I'm being chased by a raptor that can kill me in three hits regardless of the fact that I have the "vaunted" max DR, max ADV. DR, and 1250 HP combo. I have all that and a lvl 25 AM could take more punishment.

[Celtic]

to be honest i doubt anything is going to change... medic is an easy leveler and easy to play.... if you want a more complicated class you should just switch to weapons master or adrenmaster. thats why the allows you to have multiple characters so you dont get stuck with no options when you max a class.

and to redeemer after a while i would suggest getting a monster... it keeps your chain kills up, ultimatly helping out your adren and if you shoot at the right things like titans and those eyeball things you get alot of adren and with the mp5 as your medic its easy...


although i cant keep up with kronos in the higher waves and when the eyeballs sling you around i have no chance at healing myself resulting in instkill.

[hamburger]

Hi,

Though Im junior player compare to most folks here. I am still a three digit level number player. I agreed with redeemer hard to keep up with other class and have to do a camping strategy more often.

However, I am happy with the current medic though when wave 10 came. Have to do hiding from raptor. LOL (i wonder will max quickfoot able to evade raptor, havent tested yet).

It be better if medic could use vampric (wrong spelling) gun. Why dont make killing monster drop vampric gun? just like dropping mine layer. In next monster loot beta?

:idea:

[kaeolian]

I didnt read any of this I just wanted to say there is only ONE true weapons master