krneki wrote:Well, it's already happening, more often on 1st server.
Few (4,5,6) players playing a non-hiding map, all high level (lowest around 180) - monster's damage reduction too high - what's the point?
It's not impossible.
A prime example occured several weeks ago.
Only four of us (Cheap, Karma, Kronos, and I) were playing Akbal. I was the lowest level around 185. With the right communication (weapon sharing and stragety), we easily made it to luci wave with minimal ghosting and no deaths.
You ask what's the point??
People will tell you that you can't win, and you prove them wrong. Next time I would try harder and establish a stragety with the resources you have.
Last edited by DW_Ant on Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The difference between successful people from others is
not in the lack of strength,
not in the lack of knowledge,
but rather in the lack of will. FFE466
Sounds a lot like my experience on Terrigen a few weeks ago with only 4 200+ level players. Terrigen has even less adren pills (zero!) than Akbal (though arguably a better "safe/hiding" spot :sbigsmile:) yet I was able to make all the weapons I needed, shared my piercing mines with the WMs and medics, and we made it to Luci.
I did prove at numerous occasion that using a redeemer and switching to an energy weapon to replenish my 50 adren to 700 and keep globing for 3 minutes non-stop is possible on my WM with the monster lvl over 600 in Akbal, Cheapshot cavern, Deep-violet and many other hard maps. With the right "stuff" and the right startegy it's always possible to win, no matter the monster lvl. Of course it's also possible to lose, don't get me wrong, i'm not perfect.
I got the reflex of the fly, now catch me if you can!
"It is not rampant "
Sorry to disagree, we all have our opinions. At really high level you can hardly damage them. I consider that rampant and it's not much fun. Now I don't mind having to use special tactics but I don't enjoy firing against 100's of "brick walls" with little to no effect.
"as was stated earlier if you are just out there ignoring the team aspect and the team dies then the level adjustment is fair. "
Ok, fair enough and well said. However, this was not my main concern sorry if i didn't communicate it well and I think we need to keep the thread on topic. As I've said before, I don't really have much problem with the way the server is right now. I find the level spikes interesting at least and agree with you that teamwork should be used to keep the monster level down and the lower levels alive. I really see your point about this and I think it's a good point: as long as low levels flourish naturally on the server, and the level spikes are occassional, it's a team sport and the system works well enough. My concern is high level monsters becoming a norm, or what to do when on particular occassion, only really high level players are playing. I can tough out a wave using nrg deemer combo, don't find that much fun but i can do it, but if monsters are always super high level b/c me/urtho/franky/etc etc are playing, then the deemer supply is exhausted and you can't keep using that tactic, and so on.
The topic of this thread is what to do when only really high level palyers are playing, and/or high level monsters become the norm.
"You should not be able to win the wave let alone the map."
So you seem to be saying that if only high levels are playing we can't win. How is that fair?
What is the solution to this? Sure, we can go into survival mode and use all these special tactics, but i don't think it's going to be a lot of fun playing against near invincible monsters, and we probably die anyway.
Are you saying then that you just don't think the original topic of the thread is going to be an issue? You think the situation suggested by the creator of this thread will never be an issue, that low levels will always exist? If that's what you think, fine, it's certainly not a big issue right now, but what about the future.
I have been on this server only a short time. During that time, I have built up a WM to a nice level, and now I am working on an AM. I don't have much interest in building a MM so i don't think i will. I hope no ones disagrees with this approach, it seems normal to me. Honestly I am not enjoying the AM that much, not like I enjoy the WM, so I will probably prefer to play the WM much more than the AM. I have read countless times that you are supposed to find the class you are most comfortable with, and WM is that for me. That is my preference and I hope you are not suggesting I can't have my preference. My AM will be pretty high level at some point also, and I don't think I have any interest in starting any other characters unless it's just for the fun of starting a new one, as you also say, it can be enjoyable for it's own sake and i'm down with that, but I certainly wouldn't want to start one *just* to hack the server. Are you saying I should start new characters *just* to keep the monster level down?. How is that not trying to bend the server? I find such a tactic distasteful, and doesn't seem to keep in the spirt of RPG, where you invest time into building a character, and then keep that character and use him and have fun. Introducing new characters just to manipulate the server? Bah on that! Is that really what you want us to do? We spend a lot of time on this server building our characters, and I don't think it's fair to tell us we have to ditch them. We ought to be able to use the characters we have worked hard to build, use them and have fun, and imo there ought to be options for us if me and my high level buddies are the only ones playing. Now *that* would be fun, if we had some options and could use those options to win and win well as long as we stuck to the plan. And no, hiding is not a good or a fun plan *snickers* :D. Camping isn't really that well respected in UT, so any battle plan ought to involve getting out there and killing.
In my opinion if only high levels are playing, the game play should still be enjoyable. More challenging, Yes!, but it shouldn't be some dire super survival mode continuously. Sure some seem to be saying there are ways to win, but in one example given the monster level was only 185 which isn't so bad, and generally everyone tends to think that when monster level is super high that we are in super survival mode instead of normal enjoyable game play. The question posed by this thread is what to do when monster level being really high becomes more the norm or you're in a game where it's just that way.
So here is my attempt at some constructive suggestions:
Can't we at least tone the level spike down a bit? Maybe the monster level adjustment is some lessor percentage if lowest level is 200+?
So if a 185 is left, the monster are 185, but if a 300 is left, the monster adjust isn't 100 percent, maybe it's only 75% or whatever.
Perhaps put a cap on the monster level, so it doesn't get outrageous? Maybe they never go above level 190 or whatever is a level that at least you have a good chance of making some headway against them.
Or perhaps give us some more tools to be able to deal with it better? Maybe piercing weapons are more effective, or we get some other special weapon or artifact, etc etc.
I also have a doubt about piercing weapons. They don't seem to handle the situation well for really high monster level. Why not? People tell me that they ignore damage reduction, but i notice that the hit sounds a pierce makes goes higher in pitch when monster level increases. If it ignores damage reduction, why is that? Shouldn't the hit sounds remains the same? Maybe someone can tell me how this works because maybe i just don't understand it. In my mind, if we could kill the super high level monsters with reasonable efficiency using piercing weapons, then it's not so bad, but usually when i try out a piercing in such a situation, they are just as ineffective as the other weapons. Someone please enlighten me on this, maybe I am not doing this right, and just need to learn how it's done. If piercing did the job, then we'd just have to roll piercing and then go out and kick some butt. I don't mind having to adjust tactics, but cmon, exactly what tactics are available to me that can win the day? Server actually seems to be geared so that special tactics can't win the day and you must lose. Remember i am only speaking of when monster level is always high because only high level players are there.
Thanks for your consideration and answers. Remember I am just trying to give feedback for the server and have an honest discussion. I enjoy the server very much. I am hearing what is being said and acknowledge there are some good points brought up. I hope too that some of the stuff i am trying to say is making some sense.
Cheers :)
Warning: Incoming Warhead!!
Wanted on 1000 planets for mass destruction of alien life forms!
Hey Warhead, your discussion is one of the only ones that make valid points. Some of the items you mention have been discussed when we set the server up and the tweaks and adjustment factors may need to be addressed. But as of now we have not made those. It is rare that we have ever had all high levels and it spikes that badly. When we test maps one of the things we do is use high, low and mid levels to see how it plays.
I will dig and see what some of your questions turn up and adress them later. I have to go pay bills right now so I will be back later.
Oh by the way thanks for the respectful question asking and not flaming the server or people. This type of discussion goes a lot further than the other.
No shame, no dishonor, will run away to fight another day!
ACY
The topic of this thread is what to do when only really high level palyers are playing, and/or high level monsters become the norm.
I find the level spikes interesting at least and agree with you that teamwork should be used to keep the monster level down and the lower levels alive. I really see your point about this and I think it's a good point: as long as low levels flourish naturally on the server, and the level spikes are occassional, it's a team sport and the system works well enough.
A good team player would just start another name . I know you frowned upon this for a variety of reasons but really . Go for it . Take turns with Franky with new names. Problem solved right short of the fix I brought up before .
If you go screwing with the way the whole system works your going to change the whole dynamic of the game.If you cap the top monster level you will also have to cap the top player level for one .
"You should not be able to win the wave let alone the map."
So you seem to be saying that if only high levels are playing we can't win. How is that fair?
It's as fair as we can make it for a balanced game play across the levels . This was a widely discussed topic years ago when the initial setup was done. When I'm alone on a server with the most destructive player I have a Cow will pwn me on level 1 . NOt much fun I must admit . So I start a new character and I'm off to fragging cows and having fun again .
You raise some valid points but with the architecture we have build on it is what it is . It has been tweaked to death . The problem is trying to build a game where your trying to make shooting something still fun for levels 25-400+ . It's to wide of a range to deal with across the board and with the way the monster adjustment factors work .
Can't we at least tone the level spike down a bit? Maybe the monster level adjustment is some lessor percentage if lowest level is 200+?
So if a 185 is left, the monster are 185, but if a 300 is left, the monster adjust isn't 100 percent, maybe it's only 75% or whatever.
If only it were that easy . The whole thing would need a whole lot of coding right to the heart of the program .
This is a long going discussion and no one really likes the real solutions . System reset inevitable ...........it's been a good run. Then again we could always hide a level 100 bot in the basements of all maps . :scratch:
IMO the system is nicely balanced as it is. Piercing, vorpal, and other tactics make it possible to survive monsters of any level on any wave. If I'm playing my AM, I simply try to roll a piercing anything ASAP. Cows that wouldn't go down on wave 1 all of a sudden drop dead. :ssmile:
warhead2 wrote:"I also have a doubt about piercing weapons. They don't seem to handle the situation well for really high monster level. Why not? People tell me that they ignore damage reduction, but i notice that the hit sounds a pierce makes goes higher in pitch when monster level increases. If it ignores damage reduction, why is that? Shouldn't the hit sounds remains the same? Maybe someone can tell me how this works because maybe i just don't understand it. In my mind, if we could kill the super high level monsters with reasonable efficiency using piercing weapons, then it's not so bad, but usually when i try out a piercing in such a situation, they are just as ineffective as the other weapons. Someone please enlighten me on this, maybe I am not doing this right, and just need to learn how it's done. If piercing did the job, then we'd just have to roll piercing and then go out and kick some butt. I don't mind having to adjust tactics, but cmon, exactly what tactics are available to me that can win the day? Server actually seems to be geared so that special tactics can't win the day and you must lose. Remember i am only speaking of when monster level is always high because only high level players are there.
It's interesting that you mentioned the hit sound not being different for piercing weapons. I don't know if that's intentional or a glitch but it's a good observation. You might have to ignore the hit sound in this case.
Aside from the hit sound not changing, when using a piercing weapon you should notice your XP meter increasing, and as you mow monsters down, your score will go up. That's how I know it's working. :swink: If everyone alive is your level and you're the only one using piercing, your XP and score will go up while others are complaining "I'm not getting any XP!" Well, use piercing then! Get XP (and do damage) with every hit! :sbigsmile:
Also if you have awareness, you will see the monsters' health draining with every hit. If you don't have awareness, get it!
If you get a piercing MP5, mines, or link, they are gold especially if they're +10. Piercing shock is also good but I'd prefer a vorpal shock over piercing. Piercing flak is good if you have no other piercings, though normally I prefer an energy flak for my WM and always for my AM. Piercing rox are good too. Even grenades will do the job. It's not the most fun gun, but it works. If I had nothing else, I'd even use piercing bio.
[piercing weapons] don't seem to handle the situation well for really high monster level.
Last night my level 520 WM was the only one alive on several higher level waves on Hold the Crypt. I was still getting Holy Shard kills even on wave 13 with piercing MP5+10 and a piercing link (I think it was only +5).
On that note, piercing is great for mowing down wave 13's "triple resistant" volcanic sliths regardless of the monster level. :swink:
Finally, piercing may be the only way to take Luci down if there are no lower levels alive or playing.
Well I think we are getting somewhere. I really respect all the hard work you people have put into this server and understand you have years of experience with it and have hashed through all the issues before, while I am only a noob relatively to this server.
I think the idea about bringing in a new low level is a good enough work around at this time. In my mind, this is on par with the idea about keeping low level players alive when they are present. Both ideas as you know is not what I would like for various reasons, but I find them acceptable at the moment. This is all based on the assumption that the server continues to florish as it is right now, with plenty of low level people just naturally coming in as they are, and the level spikes continue to be *occasional*. Occasional is the key here :snod:
However, that being said, Seven also pointed out that the number of people who think the level goes up too high are lots. There is an old saying "The customer is always right". Well in this case it's not "customers" but "users". The vast majority of your user community think the level spikes goes up too high, and I hope that will pull some weight with your final decision. Note that not one person disagrees with the level adjustment, they only think it can go up too high.
The simplest solution is a simple cap. I fully understand the concerns about upsetting the scheme of things which you have worked so hard for, but I think this cap would not upset anything too much. I don't believe it would mean putting any cap on player levels, only putting an upper limit to the monster level.
By the way, the bot idea isn't so bad either, as we can order the bot to hide and protect him.
As I have said before, I am an experienced ut programmer and I can vouch for what I say, and I know well the complexity of ut coding. I know full well how ugly it can get but I am very adept at understanding ut code, having done some pretty interesting projects myself.
If you think a cap is actually an agreeable thing, I would be happy to look at the code and make a suggestion as to how to do it.
If you do not want to do that, I fully understand and it wouldnt offend me in the least, because your code is your blood sweat and tears and you need to protect it.
Mind you, I'm not trying to join your team or anything, just throw in a little help if needed, as an interested community member.
Now i'm not sure exactly what your code is based on, but I have taken quick look at the UT2004RPG code and will throw out a rough guess to you as what could be done. I don't know if your rewrote everything, or are just mutating another RPG package, or whatever. But if you can modify one of the main classes then it probably can be easily done. Keep in mind this is probably over simplfied, but it at least gives the general idea.
//added change for a simple cap or upper limit on monster level
if (MonsterLevel > 180)
{
MonsterLevel = 180; //or whatever number works well
}
}
Now if instead you are mutating some stock RPG add on, you would just have to implement things in the mutator's own NetDamage hook, probably have to completly overide the stock RPG's netdamage then, but that's easy to do. My guess though is you just took the source code from some RPG and made it your own, so the above sheme will work.
I hope I'm not intruding or going too far here and i appreciate being heard out, i'm just trying to help and be constructive. You have a large community and we all have our talents, so i am just willingly throw in my own contributions.
I want you to know that no matter what you decide, I am cool, and very happy with the server, and commend you for all the great work.
As far as the piercing weapons go, i have a real concern there. I will have to play around with them some more and get back to you.
I get the feeling that as monster level goes up, that they become less effective.
I am not seeing good damage scored by them when monster level is super high.
You seem to be saying then that piercing damage should be equally effective no matter what the monster level?
I am not seeing this! Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I just need to look at it again, so I will do that and get back to you.
>>Basically what you are saying then is i should see the same damage being scored on a particular monster type no matter what their level, right?
I do have Awareness and can tell what damage is being done, and have i not had the experience of piercing acting this way, so i will do some more testing and bring back conclusive results to you.
If piercing indeed could kick arse the same at any level, that would go far for me personally with the monster level issue, real far.
Cheers everyone and happy fragging! :sclapping:
Warning: Incoming Warhead!!
Wanted on 1000 planets for mass destruction of alien life forms!
Thanks for the input we will ponder on it seeing as how everyhing is "acceptable" for the time and this whole topic is a big "what if" .
What if no new peeps kept coming in and no one wanted to start new characters and things had to be fixed ? This is the question ?
Actually we have a backup plan for that , maybe if you all stick around for it long enough for it you will see it implemented . It's really quite genius and simple . Just one little tweak....... :srofl:
