Vorp shock +22 : how to prevent abuse without losing it

[DW_FrankyTheFly]

But the way the vorpal is setup now is that anyone can win. If an am with high enough ammo bonus, adrenaline, and adrenal surge manage to obtain a vorpal shock 22, they win regardless of the monster level and what map they're playing on.

No that's not always true. It's true that vorpal +22 can keep you alive when the monster level is above 200, but that depend of alot of factors. How much adrenaline you have, Damage Bonus, energy Leach level, your own level and what wave are you on. Plus you have to consider that some waves (like 15) are full of monsters equiped with shield that reflect Shock Rifle beam reducing the vorp chance. Also some other waves (like 13) are full of monsters that give few adrenaline once killed (think of the Sliths or the Raptors). It all depend on various factors. The moment in the wave where the monsters level became high also have an impact (a wave last 4 minutes, if the monster level increase after 3 minutes then you only have to survive 1 minutes, if the monster level increase after 1 minutes, then you have to resist during 3 minutes witch is much more harder). The vorpal +22 usually can barely maintain your adreanline meters on high levels monsters (I experienced it myself, you can barely keep your adreneline level by using globe+DMM on high level monsters in wave 13, and most of the time you are losing more adren then you are gaining it) and on wave 13 and 15 it's way more difficult to succeed then on wave 12 or 14 for example because the monsters there have less shield and give more Adren when killed.

To resume this situation a very few percentage of people can really succeed surviving monsters above 200 level with the vorpal +22. So in reality, even the highest level AM CAN DIE when that happend. It's all a matters of various factors end events that you can't control. And beleive me, luck got his part too.

[Seven_of_69]

I agree with Frankie and I concur with every last detail. Vorpal+22 is no guarantee of an AM's survival. My high level AM dies all the time on maps like Akbal and Deep Violet due to Vorpal+22 failure when the monster level is high, especially on waves 13 and 15 like Frankie mentioned.

In contrast, my high level WM almost never dies on Akbal, maybe due to the redeemer+energy combo which is often more effective than trying to vorpal high level monsters.

As the whole concept of using the vorpal only to have a fighting chance when monster level is high, I don't think that's a good idea. I honestly believe that there shouldn't be a chance to survive out there when monster level is above 200 so now your only chance to survive is to avoid the monsters (retreat).

The hard maps have no place to retreat to. If you can stay alive by retreating then you don't need a vorpal+22 to stay alive in the first place because you're on an easy map. There is not even a need to have or use a vorpal weapon on easy maps. On harder maps, I don't consider vorpal+22 to be abusive if it's the only way survive.

As the whole concept of using the vorpal only to have a fighting chance when monster level is high, I don't think that's a good idea. I honestly believe that there shouldn't be a chance to survive out there when monster level is above 200 so now your only chance to survive is to avoid the monsters (retreat). If the high levels fail to keep the low levels alive, they will die with them depending how much time they have left.

IMO keeping the low levels alive is subjective and is not solely the responsibility of high level players (and sometimes there are no low levels around as per the thread on that topic). It should get increasinly difficult as the monster level goes up but there should always be a >0% chance of surviving. My 500 level WM once died on wave 1 of Frostdeck 17. What's the point of playing if there is 0% chance of survival above an arbitrary monster level?

Btw whether I play to score high or just win depends on the map. I play maps like Akbal, Campgrounds, Deep Violet, Cheapshot's BB Cavern, etc. to win even if it means scoring only 5K by hovering around weaker players to keep them alive, whereas on maps like A-Boring Core/Dam or Bininoob Bottom which are always won there's no such need since they lower levels are self sustaining in their bunkered adren factories.

Incidentally, being able to role a vorpal shock every game is one reason I mostly play my AM now since piercing is no longer effective (sorry warhead!). When piercing worked, even my AM didn't need a vorpal to survive as long as I had piercing MP5/mines/rox/whatever.

A while ago I mentioned a possible solution to prevent vorpal+22 abuse by reducing its power at low monster levels and scaling it up to full power at about monster level 200. IMO that does exactly what the thread title says: "how to prevent abuse without losing it". :sbigsmile:

[DW_FrankyTheFly]

Seven I just love you man!!! You obviously learned the true way on how WM can really surpass AM on survival (not score).

And i still agree with your solution for the vorpal, you my friend are really a good assets to this server and this community. Gratz and keep up the good work!

[DW_Ant]

I don't see myself able to persuade you (and several others) on my opinion on the vorpal 22. I still don't agree on using the 22 to turn the tables on the monsters when things get rough, but then again, it's not my server. I do hope that the point reduction (1 point per vorpal) will at least reduce the usage of this.

[Seven_of_69]

Seven I just love you man!!!

Stop it, you're making me blush! :sblush:

Ant, I don't completely agree nor disagree with you. But could you elaborate on some specific points?

• Monsters should get tougher as their level goes up.

We agree.

• The probability of killing monsters should go down as their level increases but there should always be >0% chance of killing the monsters.

This could be considered a loaded statement so let's say we agree on the first part but disagree on the last part.

• Vorpal+22 turns the tables on the monsters.

We disagree but I'm not sure why. With a high monster level, my AM fails all the time with vorpal+22. If my AM isn't the last one out, it's usually a medic or WM which carries us over to the next wave or goes out last. When energy weapons are no longer effective and even vorpal+22 fails, my AM's survival record is well under 50%. (Who knows, it could even be 10%).

Considering other subjective factors such as: I only need/use vorpal+22 on hard maps with high monster level, hard maps are less frequently played, and hard maps are rarely won, my record of "success" with vorpal+22 is pretty pathetic. :sdoh:

I stand by that using vorpal+22 on low monster levels (when it's not even necessary) is abuse. When used as a survival tactic for high monster levels, I don't consider vorpal+22 to be abuse at all. Isn't giving the AM a fighting chance when other tactics fail what vorpal+22 is there for in the first place? AM's Vorpal+22 isn't even as effective as a WM's redeemer+energy combo. I'd say my WM's record of success (very high) with that combo is just the opposite of my AM's vorpal+22 record (very low).

[DW_FrankyTheFly]

I stand by that using vorpal+22 on low monster levels (when it's not even necessary) is abuse. When used as a survival tactic for high monster levels, I don't consider vorpal+22 to be abuse at all. Isn't giving the AM a fighting chance when other tactics fail what vorpal+22 is there for in the first place? AM's Vorpal+22 isn't even as effective as a WM's redeemer+energy combo. I'd say my WM's record of success (very high) with that combo is just the opposite of my AM's vorpal+22 record (very low).

I partially agree with you. It's true that the WM energy-combo is more efficient then the AM vorpal+22 tactic. But I did survive alone on wave 15 with my 410 AM (that have 700 adren) on server 1 on many maps. Taugh I admit, it is more harder to successfully do it. To be perfectly honest, I never did survive with the vorpal +22 alone on wave 15 without at least 1 Redeemer to perform 1 energy-deemer combo. I guess the only way to be sure if it's really possible to survive with only vorp+22 would be to try on maps without Redeemer (like Akbal) and see the result. Funny because in 4 years I've never been on Akbals with my AM's or MM, only my WM's LOL.

[warhead2]

all the suggestions are good imo. you guyz r great.
also, anoymouse on another thread brought up another one which i'll throw in here b/c i think it has some merit: make dmm use more adrenal. that will make it less usable in normal situations and more usable when you are one of few survivors, since you will have more targets to yourself and can get adrenaline through the holy s#$# bonus's. peronally i have no problem with this idea since i have not had any big troubles keeping adrenal up on my am (he's only level 130ish however) so i wouldn't mind that artifact costing more adrenal.

[Seven_of_69]

That really doesn't solve the problem because the abuse of vorpal+22 is happening at the lower monster levels when vorpal+22 isn't even needed for survival.

Player level and monster level are the key factors. If you're AM is level 130 and monster level is 130 or less, you don't even need DMM for either a vorpal shock nor energy weapons (e.g. when monster level is high enough that triple loses energy but DMM can still gain energy). When monster level goes above 150, things start to change. Above monster level 200, you really wouldn't want your DMM to be using more adren than it does now. When monster level is above 300, energy weapons are already quite useless and you'll be lucky if even your vorpal+22 shock will keep you alive even at today's adren consumption.

Furthermore making DMM consume adren faster would punish all players for non-abusive DMM tactics such as double vamp for faster self healing, double rejuvinating waters, etc.

[warhead2]

good points

perhaps then make only the particular combination of vorpal and dmm use more adrenaline so that other combos are not penalized? i think that idea would please ant and others would like it a bit more challenging to survive, but you probably not like it. me personally i could live with the bigger drain wouldn't mind it at all, seems to me it's very easy, maybe too easy, to dmm right now.

now one might say then it gives the wm class even better advantage of surviving over the am but so many think am is a bit over powered anyway so this would please them too so maybe kill too birds with one stone here in scaling that particular skill down a bit.

[Seven_of_69]

perhaps then make only the particular combination of vorpal and dmm use more adrenaline so that other combos are not penalized? i think that idea would please ant and others would like it a bit more challenging to survive, but you probably not like it. me personally i could live with the bigger drain wouldn't mind it at all, seems to me it's very easy, maybe too easy, to dmm right now.

That still doesn't address the issue of vorpal+22 abuse at low monster levels when vorpal+22 is used to pop every second monster and is not even needed for survival. IMO the best approach is to tone down the vorpal's power at lower monster levels and gradually increase its power to its current max no sooner than monster level 200, but by level 250 or 300 for sure. At monster level 200 an AM can still survive on energy but cannot sustain globe and triple indefinitely. By level 300-ish, energy won't even sustain a globe. Now this is when you need a vorpal+22. :swink:

now one might say then it gives the wm class even better advantage of surviving over the am but so many think am is a bit over powered anyway so this would please them too so maybe kill too birds with one stone here in scaling that particular skill down a bit.

Whether or not one class has an advantage over another is not the issue here (see topic title). :swink: Besides every class has one skill/ability or another which makes it more powerful than another class.

... so many think am is a bit over powered anyway....

We could debate that ad infinitum. It would be a very subjective debate though and would have to include various factors like player level, monster level, specific maps, etc. Any low level AM can sit on the adren piles in the Last Noobular Base inciting other players to proclaim "AM is too easy/overpowered" or whatever but let's see that same AM survive on Campgrounds, Deep Violet, Terrigen, etc. without a medic. :sevilgrin: