Death Warrant Forums

Greetings everyone, I've got a few suggestions concerning your server as well as for this forum.

1. Put a sticky or pinned post (or whatever the equivilent is for these forums) of your map listing in this forum or somewhere else obvious so people know what maps you're currently running. A simple cut 'n paste job of the relevant section of your server's .ini would be nice as it would list both the maps and the link setups you're using at the moment. It'd also make it easier to identify either totally bad maps or bad maps that might become tolerable/good ones with an alternate link setup. A seperate listing of maps you've tried and decided not to use for whatever reason or ones you're resting after having them in play for too long would be nice as well.

2. Is there any reason you guys run the UT2Vote mutator rather than the default map voting setup? I really, REALLY don't like that mutator as it not only completely hides maps from view that have been played recently, it directly overwrites keybinds in player ini's if they happen to use a key(s) that UT2Vote does. In my case, I have a keybind on the Home key that doesn't work and is in fact completely deleted and replaced from my system after playing on your server. Standard map voting that comes built into the game doesn't have this problem and it also shows players a full listing of the servers maps as well as what maps have been recently played and how long it'll be before they can be voted on again.

3. This relates to my first point above, but I wanted to seperate it out to emphasize it: you really need to take a good hard look at your map listing. There are quite a few bad maps on there that really shouldn't be run on a 32 player server as they just degenerate into a mess of random spam kills and over the top spawn killing. That map where you frequently see 2 Levi's spawn killing the only way for a team pushed back to their core to leave their base is a prime offender (Ligeria I believe is the name), but there are other equally as stupid maps on there.

Part of the issue is the use of mostly default link setups - there are very few maps that were made with larger player count servers (24+) in mind from the start. I can only think of a few that you run offhand that are - Ahebban and Malestrom. Both maps were designed by experienced mappers and extensively play tested over on Titan's 32 player servers and forum. Toxic has told me in-game that he looks actively for maps and that's good. You have to take it to the next level, howerver, and look for maps that might be good ones with something other than the map designer default links and then change up the links when the default ones are clearly not working for this number of players.

There's a web page that newbie and other map makers are directed to read by the Titan forum regulars before they start making maps for larger player count servers that you might want to read yourseves. Here's the link:

http://outpt.co.uk/art003.php

These ideas are clearly aimed at map creators, but I would advise anyone who runs a larger server to read it as well as it contains many points you need to consider when you evaluate maps that you want to try and run on your server. Obviously some of them are very map creation specific, but most are general enough to give you some ideas for when you look over your map list and decide what to keep, what to trash, and what might work with either new links or some direct editing (if you have some mappers here willing to undertake such a task).

There's more I could say, but I think I'll leave off at this point for now as I've hopefully given you some things to think about and I've gone on longer than I intended to anyways. You guys have a fun server for the most part and it is buttery smooth connection-wise for me as well, which I know is no small task for 32 player ONS so cheers on that front.

@ ToxicWaste - if / when you get a map listing up I can send you those files we talked about. Point #1 and the hiding maps aspect of #2 above are why I haven't gotten back to you as of yet.

The article for map makers - of which i am definatly not - that urtho refrences is really interesting - it brings up a lot of interesting points about maps in general that I had never taken the time to think about. :bigsmurf:

There's a web page that newbie and other map makers are directed to read by the Titan forum regulars before they start making maps for larger player count servers that you might want to read yourseves. Here's the link:

http://outpt.co.uk/art003.php

Defiant brings up a good point about personal preference for maps though - I know I like bigger maps with multiple routes to the core - I think that those maps are the most fun because they require thought & teamwork to win the map - others just seem to prefer the spamfest maps (I think for a lot of playes that vote for the spam maps it is the only way they can get kills kills and feel good abot themselves :colors: )

The thing that just kills me on a 32 player server is one route to the core - Adara is the perfect example of this - if one team is able to take out the primary of the other team the game is essentially over - I've seen teams come back from this maybe 1 out of 20 times - but with so many players able to keep the attacking team from getting the primary node up the game is always a 1 point overtime win. I think Adara is a great map with an alternate link set-up whic hi will post when ihave time to look for it tommorow.

Anyway thats my 2 cents - & thanks urtho for the link to that article - it was really interesting for me to read. :cheers:

Bandit-fs :pirate:

Hello Urtho. nice to meet you.

Urtho wrote:2. Is there any reason you guys run the UT2Vote mutator rather than the default map voting setup? I really, REALLY don't like that mutator as it not only completely hides maps from view that have been played recently, it directly overwrites keybinds in player ini's if they happen to use a key(s) that UT2Vote does. In my case, I have a keybind on the Home key that doesn't work and is in fact completely deleted and replaced from my system after playing on your server. Standard map voting that comes built into the game doesn't have this problem and it also shows players a full listing of the servers maps as well as what maps have been recently played and how long it'll be before they can be voted on again.

Yes right. UT2vote has some problems. However I approves of hiding some maps. People will Vote only narrow maps, when a maps are not hidden. Dreamus, BitchSlap , ChainsIsile :pale: How many can Standard map vote hide a map?　If many maps are hidden , UT2Vote is no necessity.

Urtho wrote:Part of the issue is the use of mostly default link setups - there are very few maps that were made with larger player count servers (24+) in mind from the start. I can only think of a few that you run offhand that are - Ahebban and Malestrom. Both maps were designed by experienced mappers and extensively play tested over on Titan's 32 player servers and forum. Toxic has told me in-game that he looks actively for maps and that's good. You have to take it to the next level, howerver, and look for maps that might be good ones with something other than the map designer default links and then change up the links when the default ones are clearly not working for this number of players

I agree. Some maps are very boring cuz default link setup.

Urtho wrote:There's a web page that newbie and other map makers are directed to read by the Titan forum regulars before they start making maps for larger player count servers that you might want to read yourseves. Here's the link:

http://outpt.co.uk/art003.php

I have also read this.　Although I agree with most But I cannot agree on some. Choke point is the powerful attraction of ONS. and Levi is an indispensable hot spice in ONS.

Defiant wrote:The key for yours should not be deleted and just used by a different key during your use on the server. If it was physically changed. You have another issue besides the mutator.

Well... I'm not sure how to put this nicely but you're wrong. I've seen it in my ini after playing on the DW server and had to retype the keybind to get it to work again on other servers. I've since "disabled" the key when I've been on DW from the UT2Vote in-game menu and the replacing hasn't happened since, but the keybind still doesn't work on the DW server. Any attempt to use the keybind will instead bring up the voting menu which is... annoying to say the least.

Re: maps

This is a personal preference... some of them are specifically on there to cause chaotic fighting. They are there for a reason on a 32man, it's called pinching. Forcing 32 people into a situation that they have no choice..

Oh I certainly agree it's a personal preference, I'm just a bit put off by how many people seen to want to play mindless spam maps with zero strategy and skill required. The fact that you've purposely left superweapons turned on for this server makes me think I'll have to limit my exposure to certain maps here.

See, I don't enjoy fighting to the best of my considerable abilities to rebuild a down primary node to start a comeback and then have all that hard work taken out by some no-skill deemer shot. But some (most?) of you seem to just love that type of gameplay it would appear. Oh well.

Bandit-fs wrote:The thing that just kills me on a 32 player server is one route to the core - Adara is the perfect example of this - if one team is able to take out the primary of the other team the game is essentially over - I've seen teams come back from this maybe 1 out of 20 times - but with so many players able to keep the attacking team from getting the primary node up the game is always a 1 point overtime win. I think Adara is a great map with an alternate link set-up whic hi will post when ihave time to look for it tommorow.

Anyway thats my 2 cents - & thanks urtho for the link to that article - it was really interesting for me to read. :cheers:

I agree completely, and others do as well - that is why the above is basically point #1 on that webpage I linked. Single nodes that are the "gateway" to the rest of a map from the core DO NOT WORK with this many players. There are too many people attacking a single point the moment it becomes open to attack to defend realistically. And when that node falls, all the others are on borrowed time since that node wouldn't have fallen if the attacking team was unskilled to begin with. Then the losing team gets to face a team that has all the other nodes on the map from which to choose vehicles and then go attack a single point that the losing team must build and defend with the resources of only their core vehicles and weapon lockers. Two core linked nodes that are relatively close to the core is the ideal in ONS map design (more than this is too challenging most of the time on public servers) as this splits the attackers focus and makes retaking one or both nodes possible - look to Ahebban for how it is done correctly. If the attackers do focus on one core node, it is possible for the losing team to outflank them and lock or isolate their enemy-held core nodes via a cutoff. That is good design and it leads to fun gameplay and comebacks rather than monotonous battles around a single node for 10 minutes.

Because of this situation, trying to come back on some maps DW runs is an exercise in extreme futility. I would guess that most of the maps that suffer from this problem were never tweaked or designed by someone who has PLAYED games of ONS instead of just mapping for the gametype. Weapon locker problems, geographies that "funnel" players into killzones, widly excessive numbers of spider mines, vehicle imbalances, and much more - they are all there on some of the maps that seem to get voted in time after time. I have to laugh when some of the really bad ones consistently get picked over some of those I know to be good choices that get ignored vote after vote. Shouldn't come as much of a surprise really - as I've learned over many years of running servers, some players simply have no taste or idea of what makes a good map and would rather run around holding the firing key down.

Regarding Adara specifically, as you point out it can be a very good map with the right link setup - which the default one is most certainly not. The default 1-3-1 links just do not work (on this map or any other - witness default ArticStronghold), and the leaving in of the deemer just makes it that much more of a joke. You know, I used to hate this map with a passion when I played it on Cains, but it's grown on me after Fluffy came up with some links that work. Turn off superweapons and you'll have a great map that will have many reversals and comebacks over the course of a game.

And you're welcome for the link. I encourage everyone to read it and really think about the points it brings up.

Pomona wrote:Yes right. UT2vote has some problems. However I approves of hiding some maps. People will Vote only narrow maps, when a maps are not hidden. Dreamus, BitchSlap , ChainsIsile :pale: How many can Standard map vote hide a map?　If many maps are hidden , UT2Vote is no necessity.

Standard map voting doesn't hide maps that have been recently played, just disables them from being chosen. Meaning that all maps a server has available are in the listing, but recently voted ones are "greyed out" and not selectable when voting for a new map until the map repeat limit is reached for that map. Default for this setting is 4, I've found a setting of 5 to 7 works fine with ~ 30 maps or so running. There is also a "sequence" listing, so you know how many more maps have to be played before you can vote for your favorite again if it was played recently before you joined the server.

Urtho wrote:http://outpt.co.uk/art003.php

I have also read this.　Although I agree with most But I cannot agree on some. Choke point is the powerful attraction of ONS. and Levi is an indispensable hot spice in ONS.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point I think. Nothing lamer in ONS play comes to mind for me than the redeemer shot that takes out the single core-linked choke node on a map. Levi is less of an issue, as it can work fine on a good map (see DryIce for good Levi placement).

Hi all, I'm sorry I have not had time to join in this conversation. You all bring up valid points.

About superweapons: I can put it to a vote and see what people say.

About mines: We are trying to remove mines from maps that do not benefit from their inclusion (i.e. Chain, Bitch slap, etc.) I know, most of you will say they don't belong in any map, but some maps are way overkill.

About custom links: I'm trying to add them in. I'm real busy, and if I have one hour to myself sometimes, it's a lot these days. I've added a few and hopefully they've made those maps more playable.

The bottom line here is this: I cannot make the server everything you like Urtho. I cannot make the server everything you like Defiant. I cannot make the server everything you like Pomona. Why? Because you all like different things. I cannot make this server perfect for everyone because everyone does not agree on what the perfect server is. So by definition, this server will always be imperfect.

And this is a public server, and you will never get the teamwork and cooperation you can expect from a clan atmosphere. And you will get plenty of new players, which I happen to like. I don't want the same 32 players playing here night after night. I like to see new players rotate in and out.

Me, I'm flexible. I like a lot of different things, and I think that's reflected in the server. Sometimes I like strategy, and playing a map for an hour. And sometimes, I like a pure spamfest, just picking up a flack cannon, taking out 3 people, getting killed, and doing it all over again. If you ask me, it's very satisfying taking an advantage on a map like Dreamus, where the spam is equal on both sides. To me, getting that middle node up takes skill. The adrenaline rushes furiously as I'm charging up that node, looking at the build meter and looking at that empty spot waiting for people to come running over that hill any second.

I would get bored quickly if all of the maps on the server were the same (all spam, all strategy, etc.)

I somewhat agree with the single node to the core chokepoint, but only somewhat. Sometimes it's a personal challenge to me to keep a team from winning in regular time, and I'll do everything I can to keep that team from winning that way. Especially if it's only the first round, and we get another crack at them. We may never get that node back, but you'll have to take the core over my dead body.

But that's just me. I play every match with the tenaciousness of a rabid dog. Some folks out there have become a little bored (I guess) of ONS, that two minutes into a match, the third node from the core falls, and, they tell their team to lay down and let it end. I don't know what those people get out of playing still, and I think they should move on to a new game.

And about comebacks: Why does everyone think that comebacks are required? This is war my friends, and if one army is stronger than the other, than that's the way it is. We can have a nice mid-game battle for 10 minutes, and then have one team gets the final node. Why should it be easy for me to come back on them? And one thing that everyone forgets, is that if you make a map that's easy for a defending team to come back on, then you make it nearly impossible for the attacking team to finish it, and you get overtime everytime. Think about that for a few minutes, and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Thanks for the input. Keep it coming, and I'll do my best to implement some of the things I've seen here.

Rich