General feedback on my experience with Monster Evolution

[WeediestAman]

I hate it. Why is it so hard for beginners to learn what to do?

Now before you go on about "cry more", let me point out a few things...

I picked Berserk because it sounded cool, tough offensive class right? Wrong. I'm lvl 44 right now and I still die from getting hit once or twice. It takes me a few weeks just to get to lvl 44 (cause you know, some people have things to do in real life) but apparently that is still considered incompetent. I then went on this forum today and found this quote...

"This class is expected to die the most frequent."

Expected? Generally speaking, the one thing that a game player want to avoid to do in ANY game is dying, and this class obviously doesn't follow the basic rules of gaming. I remember reading someone's in-game chat, that "sometimes we expect a Berserk to commit suicide and use the explosion after death (whatever it is called) to help the team to win", now why would I want to do that? I'm all for winning but I don't want to be expected to go die just because I'm a berserk. I'm not a suicide bomber, I want to play the game and be alive.


The learning curve for this is way too tough. For example, how is someone new supposed to know hey, I have to look for this dead Marine and press "use" and read the passcode to open the door while enemies are infinitely respawning within a few jumps away? I can't even begin to read before I get shot and die. I wouldn't have a clue as to what most of the abilities do if I didn't play Monster Mash (which I got really good at). Also, not everyone know what happens after you complete an objective and a lot of the times I'm the first one to die because I don't know what's going on. It is discouraging.


If I have to wait 1800 seconds to spawn a monster to play it then I shouldn't have to worry about someone else taking it and all the sudden I have to wait another 300 seconds or however long it is. That happens to me quite a bit and sometimes no one are spawning monsters but I still had to wait additional time for no reason. There have been times that I couldn't shoot back as a monster when someone's hitting me, not sure what that's all about.


If a lake or river is toxic then perhaps you should put a sign on it saying "hey don't jump in cause you'll lose health" or something like that, especially when the river doesn't appear to be dangerous.


If you guys haven't noticed... it is almost always the same 15 to 20 people playing this server. This should tell you the friendliness of the game itself. It isn't friendly at all. No manuals, the game doesn't exactly "teach" the player as to what to do, I get lost all the time... just to name a few things that annoyed me personally. Yes, there are some FAQs on this forum but I shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes reading on the internet just to press "start" on a game. Often times I ask questions in chat and some people gets pissed like "ohh noobs can't help anyway", thanks man. I can now make weapons and when I put it in team chat nobody responds, and later on someone will say "oh thanks for sharing" when they see me with a copyable gun.



Let me just say that the maps looks great, the team-play idea is good but I don't agree with a lot of the stuff that goes on. This isn't fun to me, it has becoming more of a hassle than anything else. I've been an avid game player since the late 80s and this Monster Evolution frustrates me more than the original Ninja Gaiden. I'm sorry but I'm probably going to stop playing ME.

[SomethingToSay]

Well part of the problem, and I played with you today, was that we were playing maps that were way too high of a level for you. When you play with people like Sal, they refuse to play low level maps -_- lol so if you did Frigate and other lower level maps it may help you, all rank 1's(pre level 50) are pretty crappy, they always die. Just wait til you hit level 50 and can spend a bit more and see.

Once you learn how to manipulate threat(make tons of weapons) it gets easier to level up as well, plus I also noted your weapons masteries are all in the -10% or worse range still, just work on using weapons a lot and raising those, that's a big key to Berserk class is that once you get the masteries up, you can do more damage and get more XP. I for instance am a Paladin in rank 2 (level 50-100 range) and have just 10% damage masteries, and it sucks because you don't get much XP

As for knowing what will happen after objectives, yeah that takes experience, doing it a few times and remembering what happens and what gets triggered. It's always good to take it slow, but some players, particularly higher level ones, hate to wait :P

I know what you mean about not being able to shoot as a monster, I don't know what that's about either, sometimes the monster will just stop firing for a bit, it's weird. Though once you choose a certain monster(ie if I pick mancubus) then die, it takes longer than the normal amount of time for anyone to be that monster again.

And the river is green, that is meant to signify toxic lol :P though everyone has trouble with that so it's not just you, just keep boosting HP as you can, and if there are Medics ask for healing if they can heal.

I do wish they'd bump the 12 player cap to 16, it often is a lot of the same people, and others quit because of *a certain player* and because of nerfs and changes to the server, but it's still in a testing phase, Monster Mash servers are more well built and tested and tried and true.

There's not a lot you can do about not knowing what to do, a lot of times it's too hard to explain too, so people don't bother. You never know, maybe the person who wanted your weapon wasn't reading or wasn't there when you posted it, and even so, if they're really being jerks about it just don't share that time :P usually theyll just say they want your gun or ask what it is if they see you with it.

Overall, I'd say try Monster Mash a while, players won't be on your case anywhere near as much, since it's not such a team reliant game, and you can get the hang of the RPG system etc. Either way, rank 1 players like I said, are pretty weak, it takes time to build up health etc.

Sorry to hear your experience wasn't great :( It does get a bit repetitive after a while :/

[Habulin]

"This class is expected to die the most frequent."

Expected? Generally speaking, the one thing that a game player want to avoid to do in ANY game is dying, and this class obviously doesn't follow the basic rules of gaming.

You know, the fact that "This class is expected to die the most frequent." does NOT mean it has to die. If you play good enough and are a good team player you will rarely die. You're basicly saying:
There is a 70% chance that a truck will hit me on the highway.
There is a 28% chance that a nothing will hit me.
There is a 2% chance that a plane wil hit me on the highway.

Does that mean that whenever you are on the highway a truck will hit you in the face and roflstomp you? Think about it.

LP Habulin

[DW_Ant]

...I'm lvl 44 right now and I still die from getting hit once or twice. It takes me a few weeks just to get to lvl 44...

Dang, you're close to rank II. There isn't much difference between a level 20 or a level 40 due to low stat caps. At rank II, the game becomes significantly easier (and even more so at rank III and IV).

"sometimes we expect a Berserk to commit suicide and use the explosion after death (whatever it is called) to help the team to win", now why would I want to do that? I'm all for winning but I don't want to be expected to go die just because I'm a berserk. I'm not a suicide bomber, I want to play the game and be alive.

Vengeance is not intended to make players a suicide bomber. It's to give the monster the last kick even after death. The ability is optional. You do not have to buy that ability (nor suicide yourself to bomb monsters).

The learning curve for this is way too tough. For example, how is someone new supposed to know hey, I have to look for this dead Marine and press "use" and read the passcode to open the door while enemies are infinitely respawning within a few jumps away? I can't even begin to read before I get shot and die. I wouldn't have a clue as to what most of the abilities do if I didn't play Monster Mash (which I got really good at). Also, not everyone know what happens after you complete an objective and a lot of the times I'm the first one to die because I don't know what's going on. It is discouraging.

I think timing is just very poor when you were playing Utopia.
Two things here:
First, it was the first play through since Utopia came back onto the server. Very few players had any idea what to do. Not only that, but the introduction to the key pad was bugged so I skipped that part to continue with the test. As a consequence, no one was introduced to the key pad menu.
Second, Utopia is a rank IV map (one of the hardest maps on the server). I do apologies that you played through that map at such a low level.

If I have to wait 1800 seconds to spawn a monster to play it then I shouldn't have to worry about someone else taking it and all the sudden I have to wait another 300 seconds or however long it is. That happens to me quite a bit and sometimes no one are spawning monsters but I still had to wait additional time for no reason. There have been times that I couldn't shoot back as a monster when someone's hitting me, not sure what that's all about.

Finding the right spawn time interval for player monsters is difficult.
At the moment, the interval increases for every dead player and for every player monster there is. The interval is cut in half when you died as a human player.
This was done because the attackers found themselves frequently overwhelmed. Many people suggested to increase the interval so that the server doesn't become a continuous deathmatch. Keep in mind that the player monster spawn time interval is available for negotiation.

If a lake or river is toxic then perhaps you should put a sign on it saying "hey don't jump in cause you'll lose health" or something like that, especially when the river doesn't appear to be dangerous.

That's a map design flaw. Fortunately, Rancid Mountain is still in beta. I'll add several warning signs next update.

...No manuals, the game doesn't exactly "teach" the player as to what to do, I get lost all the time... just to name a few things that annoyed me personally. Yes, there are some FAQs on this forum but I shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes reading on the internet just to press "start" on a game...

When new players come in, I try my best to vote up the easiest maps. Some maps like Forgotten Fane and Colosseum are good maps to play when you're new. Unfortunately, many high levels refuse to play those maps and they'll rush the crap out of that game. I can't force them to play at a slower pace. One thing we got to keep in mind is the server is shared. If a tutorial map is going to be played, all players will have to play through it. I am working on a casual gamer's map though (where all players have infinite lives and such), but I'm certain even that's not enough since not all players would want to play the same map. And certainly not all players have the same levels.

Often times I ask questions in chat and some people gets pissed like "ohh noobs can't help anyway", thanks man. I can now make weapons and when I put it in team chat nobody responds, and later on someone will say "oh thanks for sharing" when they see me with a copyable gun.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. Yes, I find it rude when players make comments like those, but I don't believe that comment was made directly to you after asking question(s). Still, I don't find that comment justified. Usually if I find a comment that offends me, I'll either kick vote or give them a verbal warning about it. It usually works. Unfortunately rude comments like that comes naturally in most multiplayer games (especially games with competition).

Let me just say that the maps looks great, the team-play idea is good but I don't agree with a lot of the stuff that goes on. This isn't fun to me, it has becoming more of a hassle than anything else. I've been an avid game player since the late 80s and this Monster Evolution frustrates me more than the original Ninja Gaiden. I'm sorry but I'm probably going to stop playing ME.

Monster Evolution was built differently because there was a demand for an increased difficulty. People wanted a harder game, and that's why this game is structured like this. Of course something like this will split the audience though. Many will hate the difficulty, and many will like the difficulty. Since we already have 2 MM servers, we decided to go for the hard difficulty.

I do understand why you would leave. I thank you for checking out the server, and I thank you for leaving us your feedback so we can make some changes for the future.

[DW_WailofSuicide]

The learning curve for this is way too tough. For example, how is someone new supposed to know hey, I have to look for this dead Marine and press "use" and read the passcode to open the door while enemies are infinitely respawning within a few jumps away? I can't even begin to read before I get shot and die. I wouldn't have a clue as to what most of the abilities do if I didn't play Monster Mash (which I got really good at). Also, not everyone know what happens after you complete an objective and a lot of the times I'm the first one to die because I don't know what's going on. It is discouraging.

I don't think anyone knew that off the bat. However, I was pretty quickly able to deduce that you needed to retrieve the passcodes off of the dead marine because earlier in the map you are supposed to retrieve a passcode off of a living marine.
I agree that this is something that could be communicated better, but then as a mapmaker you don't always want to spell things out 100% and your ability to convey information to players is really limited anyway (you can put some text on their screen, but there's no guarantee anyone will read it).

Every map is different, but eventually you begin to catch on to the maps by playing them several times. Don't worry, we're all lost and taken by surprise the first time we play a level.

If a lake or river is toxic then perhaps you should put a sign on it saying "hey don't jump in cause you'll lose health" or something like that, especially when the river doesn't appear to be dangerous.

Now you know. The map loading screen *does* say that toxic materials have been being dumped in the river. Either way, you lost some health or died -- Maybe not the best scenario but it's not exactly a tragedy. Every map has its own elements to learn.

If you guys haven't noticed... it is almost always the same 15 to 20 people playing this server. This should tell you the friendliness of the game itself. It isn't friendly at all. No manuals, the game doesn't exactly "teach" the player as to what to do, I get lost all the time... just to name a few things that annoyed me personally. Yes, there are some FAQs on this forum but I shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes reading on the internet just to press "start" on a game. Often times I ask questions in chat and some people gets pissed like "ohh noobs can't help anyway", thanks man. I can now make weapons and when I put it in team chat nobody responds, and later on someone will say "oh thanks for sharing" when they see me with a copyable gun.

I agree the learning curve is too high, and I'd prefer for there to be a less dramatic RPG system. Ultimately the RPG system is responsible for why low level players die in 1-2 hits, or why low levels have to shoot 20 Flak balls to kill a Krall. It's pretty much the same thing as Monster Mash, but you can't rely on just getting Luci experience to push you up in levels here.

I think it's a mistake to take *some* people's hostile attitudes as indicative of the server as a whole, or to attribute malice to players who don't pay attention to the text chat.

My suggestion: Roll a Paladin or Support character. I personally don't enjoy the Berserk class much because I find myself dying too frequently and I'd rather play a character that can take a few hits. Supports still die frequently at low levels, but you'll be more well rounded. Berserkers are a total glass-cannon build, which is great in situations where you can dodge all enemy attacks, but as soon as you get hit it's always going to hurt as a Berserker. Supports and Paladins have some meat to them, but they don't kill quite as fast.

[DW_Ant]

Regarding to your concern about the learning curve.

...No manuals, the game doesn't exactly "teach" the player as to what to do, I get lost all the time... just to name a few things that annoyed me personally. Yes, there are some FAQs on this forum but I shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes reading on the internet just to press "start" on a game...

Recently, I've uploaded a new map specific for new players. It's a conversion from AS-Jumpship. It go through the basics and overview. It covers topics such as gameplay elements, player monsters, rpg system, and damage-type elements.

I know it isn't much, but at least new players now have a level specific for them. They can level up fairly fast there until they hit rank II.

[warhead2]

Nice job Ant on the jumpship tutorial. It definitly gives you the basics and is great for beginners to play. I will however agree with him, the learning curve is not just too high, but in my opinion it's impossible. Just my opinion mind you but i think the only way you can learn to play the maps is by getting that info from other players who already know, and the game feels a bit esoteric in that way, maybe not your intent but it comes off that way. the game should tell you what you need but too often you will have to ask someone else. i'm not being negative, i love the ME server, but i think his point is valid. my advice to weed is always ask and always follow. ask questions and stay in the back and follow the team, and you will be fine. as for improving the game itself one thing i suggest is to add objective path finders, that moving line that shows you the way. a sub map would be helpful too, like in ut3 where in upper right you have the mini map. i never had problem in ut3 finding my way around in warfare due to these two things. another thing is perhaps to add a keyboard hotkey button you can press which pops up a window giving more details description about your current ojbective. now an arguement against all this is there is fun in trying to figure things out, and i won't deny that. anyways those are my suggestions for wht they r worth.

it's only saying that berserks will die more than other classes, that's all. berserks are not expected to die, but death is a fact and the berserk death rate is going to be higher because they have less resistances and health than other classes. this is to compensate for that fact that they are bloody killing machines. when you get the berserk leveled you will love the killing power and everyone else will want to be like you in that way. however the berserk needs the other classes to support him with adrenaline, med packs, etc for his healing. this encourages team play. you will find the whole team will come to rely on you to make the big kills, such as when facing a big boss monster. take it from me: i am a level 178 berserk and i love it, love it lots. i still need to rely on the team for healing but it's such a rush with all the killing power and it will probaly always be my favorite class. back in the early dayz i too remember the sting of dying a lot, and had to stay behind the team for protection. by rank 2 you can move up a bit and by rank three you can start leading.

ME has the probelm Bombing Run had. It's a more difficult game and that will turn a lot of people off. hence you will not have the big population on it like MM has. Ant and others from the start wanted a more challenging game type and so this is the side effect of that. to those however desiring that extra challenge with monster style game type, this server is an excellent place.

try sticking it out if you would. i think and hope you will find that the extra team reliance ME encourage is stimulating and fun. let your teammates guide you through the trials that come to the beginner and maybe you will come to like it, and if not, hey thanks for trying and thanks for feedback.

[Thwart]

I must have missed this post back when it first started last September.

Since everyone here has expressed their gratitude to WeediestAmen's feedback, allow me to be the one to balance it out and say, "So what?"

Options for your enjoyment in UT2004:
Onslaught= spamvikings
Invasion(easy)= Monster Mash
Team Deathmatch/Freon= Infamous (Werd's is also still online)
Assault= Monster Evolution

Of course you have other servers such as CTF, iCTF, Trials, and ones for Snipers.
UT3 was created a while back, and I heard C.O.D along with Halo has a couple new FPS games that are out.

You also have Country, Rap, Hip-Hop, Rock, Metal (and I won't get into the subcategories), electronic/dance, Classical, and etc. of music that you can listen to. I can give you my opinion to which music has more substance, but everyone differs to what is enjoyable for them.

I'm sorry but I'm probably going to stop playing ME.

Who's feelings did you think you were going to hurt that you felt the need to apologize? *looks around* :scratch:

My comment isn't solely limited to Weediest, but rather it is just generally stated. As I borrow a little from Stephen Crane, I do find it amusing when people expect for another to actually get the fact that they do not enjoy something, and assume it would create in them a sense of obligation.
:sgiggle:

[DW_WailofSuicide]

The value in feedback like this is not to say, "I don't like this" it's in pointing out that there's a big burden of knowledge to get into Monster Evolution that isn't really adequately explained anywhere. Weediest's feedback is actually very constructive and legitimate. Whether it's a map or an ability, I want to do my best to communicate to the player what's going on and what to expect.

For example, in a lot of my maps I utilize endless waves of monsters in certain areas that I want to remain threatening or require players to watch these positions -- A newer player might sit at one of these and keep killing these monsters expecting to earn lots of experience, only to find out 10 minutes later that they keep coming and he gains nothing from actively trying to kill those monsters. I consider this a problem, and although I like the gameplay impact of having constant monster spawns around to keep players on their toes I would like to do something to make it more obvious when certain types of foes will grant 0 experience. (I've considered having a message pop up when you shoot a 0 score monster or something, but that could be annoying, so I am not sure.)

A more common complaint might be "I'm lost," which from a map design standpoint is something I'd like to avoid as well. I hear that pretty frequently from newer players in Forgotten Fane, and that's actually something I'd like to work on more for that level. In a game like Left 4 Dead the map design is really well done for singleplayer and even new players generally feel pulled along the correct path.

[SomethingToSay]

The value in feedback like this is not to say, "I don't like this" it's in pointing out that there's a big burden of knowledge to get into Monster Evolution that isn't really adequately explained anywhere. Weediest's feedback is actually very constructive and legitimate. Whether it's a map or an ability, I want to do my best to communicate to the player what's going on and what to expect.

For example, in a lot of my maps I utilize endless waves of monsters in certain areas that I want to remain threatening or require players to watch these positions -- A newer player might sit at one of these and keep killing these monsters expecting to earn lots of experience, only to find out 10 minutes later that they keep coming and he gains nothing from actively trying to kill those monsters. I consider this a problem, and although I like the gameplay impact of having constant monster spawns around to keep players on their toes I would like to do something to make it more obvious when certain types of foes will grant 0 experience. (I've considered having a message pop up when you shoot a 0 score monster or something, but that could be annoying, so I am not sure.)

A more common complaint might be "I'm lost," which from a map design standpoint is something I'd like to avoid as well. I hear that pretty frequently from newer players in Forgotten Fane, and that's actually something I'd like to work on more for that level. In a game like Left 4 Dead the map design is really well done for singleplayer and even new players generally feel pulled along the correct path.

I do think on Thrust the monsters that spawn if you don't do the (i think it's the 2 SAM launcher things) seem to spawn really fast, im not sure ive ever seen them not spawn, nobody gets that done in time :(


but yeah I probably never would've come close to figuring the stuff out without the wiki and without asking people, though if you've played monster mash first, it helps a lot. The threat system is really aggravating and there are still certain players (who are supposed to be banned anyway) that like to rush.

I didn't get how threat worked until the big thread about sal and stuff and ant finally explained it in a way that was easy to understand